Parts Washer Solvent

[Susquatch]

Hey @thestelster , I couldn't help myself. I ran some numbers holding everything constant except the bore parameters and adjusting powder charge to maintain the 60,000 psi SAAMI standard.

First I began by adjusting the powder charge to achieve the 60,000 psi SAAMI specification with a fixed case, Sierra 168gr HPBT Match bullet, seating depth, and primer. It happened that it took 43.5gr of 8208XBR powder to calculate a piezo SAMMI chamber pressure of 60,000 psi. The resulting MV was 2757 fps.

Then I reduced the bore and rifling per your specs and as expected, the pressure exceeded 60,000 psi. So I reduced the powder charge to 43.4 gr to get the 60ksi SAMMI max again. But contrary to expectations, this actually reduced MV a scootch to 2755. Basically an insignificant difference in the real world, or a nice SD for those who like that. But it is a calculated result that is usually directionally correct so somewhat more meaningful.

So I did a little additional research.

It turns out that Sierra makes 168gr HPBT Matchkings for both 7mm and 308. So I took a quick look at their reloading tables for both the 308 and the 7mm-08. Turns out for the same powders, the 308 turns out consistently higher velocity across all powders. They are both listed for the same primer, barrel length, rifle make, and case manufacturer. Of course, we all know that one column in a reloading table is virtually meaningless in the real world. I think we can also agree that the higher initial velocity of the 308 will be lost to the higher BC of the 7mm over long distances.

Lots of questions, but thought you would be interested too. Feel free to ask me to run scenarios for you.

 

[thestelster]

Hey @thestelster , I couldn't help myself. I ran some numbers holding everything constant except the bore parameters and adjusting powder charge to maintain the 60,000 psi SAAMI standard.

First I began by adjusting the powder charge to achieve the 60,000 psi SAAMI specification with a fixed case, Sierra 168gr HPBT Match bullet, seating depth, and primer. It happened that it took 43.5gr of 8208XBR powder to calculate a piezo SAMMI chamber pressure of 60,000 psi. The resulting MV was 2757 fps.

Then I reduced the bore and rifling per your specs and as expected, the pressure exceeded 60,000 psi. So I reduced the powder charge to 43.4 gr to get the 60ksi SAMMI max again. But contrary to expectations, this actually reduced MV a scootch to 2755. Basically an insignificant difference in the real world, or a nice SD for those who like that. But it is a calculated result that is usually directionally correct so somewhat more meaningful.

So I did a little additional research.

It turns out that Sierra makes 168gr HPBT Matchkings for both 7mm and 308. So I took a quick look at their reloading tables for both the 308 and the 7mm-08. Turns out for the same powders, the 308 turns out consistently higher velocity across all powders. They are both listed for the same primer, barrel length, rifle make, and case manufacturer. Of course, we all know that one column in a reloading table is virtually meaningless in the real world. I think we can also agree that the higher initial velocity of the 308 will be lost to the higher BC of the 7mm over long distances.

Lots of questions, but thought you would be interested too. Feel free to ask me to run scenarios for you.

Fantastic!! But have to use 155gr bullets.

 

[Susquatch]

No problem. Easy to change that. Keep in mind it's only a model. Results are usually directional but not absolute.

 

[Chicken lights]

Soooo.....what's everyone using for an annealer? There's a couple small units in the $2-300 range that use a propane torch, but are pretty much plug n play. I've seen other guys make similar ones out of odds n sods from around the shop, too

 

[140mower]

Soooo.....what's everyone using for an annealer?

If I am feeling particularly generous, I let her use an old pair of knee pads

 

[Susquatch]

Soooo.....what's everyone using for an annealer? There's a couple small units in the $2-300 range that use a propane torch, but are pretty much plug n play. I've seen other guys make similar ones out of odds n sods from around the shop, too

I stopped annealing the day I got my first box of Lapua Brass.

Lapua brass comes pre-annealed in the box.

Each time you size and shoot the brass, it work hardens a bit. But if you keep track of how many times each brass is fired, it work hardens pretty evenly. The key to accuracy and precision is consistency. As long as everything is the same, it will go through the same hole. So as long as all the brass has workhardened equally, it will be consistent.

I have reloaded countless rounds in my life. After a while you develop a feel for when something is off. I watch for a change in feel when I size and when I seat bullets. I can generally tell when it's time to retire my brass and use it for hunting instead of targets. Annealing might postpone that time, but it's a pain to do so I don't.

That's my opinion on the subject. I'm sure others will disagree. And that's ok.

 

[6.5 Fan]

The current thinking on annealing every time you load is to keep neck tension consistent. The F-class shooters use Lapua brass and still anneal every reload, I bought a propane style annealer but am still experimenting with it. God help me i will never spend over a thousand frickken dollars for the aussie annealer. I used to shoot silhouette and was running on the top edge of max loads, primer pockets would be gone buy the end of the season, no worries bout necks splitting.

 

[CWret]

Glad you started this @thestelster - it’s been quite interesting, I’ve got a few new things to try now. Sorry for not chiming in sooner. Us retired guys get busy sometimes.
Three main topics developed
1. Solvents, cleaning liquids and other concoctions.
2. Sonic parts cleaners.
3. Reloading ammo, a natural off-shoot (no pun intended) from cleaning off powder residue.
Note: I have zero experience with item 3.

1. Solvents.
Varsol keeps getting mentioned. I use it most often, it’s one of the spray bottles in my arsenal of cleaners and lubricants (see photo below). It isn’t as nasty as some of the other options but sometimes it doesn’t quite cut it. I like to also use kerosene. I gave up my large industrial type part washer when downsizing many years ago (16x24” with a 5 gallon tank and sprayer from the recirculating pump). I now use an engine oil drain pan. After each use, I drain it and store the dirty solvent safety in a steel cabinet.
I’ll often use diesel- just because i usually have it on hand. Also, I save old gasoline and it gets used occasionally for cleaning. I hate the ethanol that is in our gas and regularly drain small engines (generator, tiller, pressure washer,etc) - so that gas gets stored in the shed until my yearly trip to the hazardous waste collection site. When something needs cleaning i usually start with a spray of Super Clean to pre-soak and then the varsol. As @Dabbler said - using eye protection and gloves is good advice. I switch to my prescription safety glasses when in the shop. I use Green Monkey nitrile gloves but only half the time because i too dislike any gloves (gloves are a kinda necessary evil).
I plan to try @Larry_C9 ’s idea of adding ATF to the varsol - thanks.
In pic below is my 400 cfm exhaust fan hose. The fan is in the attic and it exhaust outside after going through a furnace filter. I use it when welding, painting, or using solvents. In the wood box beside the exhaust hose is a 1200 cfm fan (repurposed furnace fan). It’s on pulleys so i can lower it to easily change the 2 filters. Both sides have a filter. They are high performance furnace filters from Costco. That big fan is noisy but effective when grinding or working with wood and it doesn’t waste warm air during the cool months.

 

[Susquatch]

I guess the shooting disciplines are still very different. I called a young colleague who still competes in benchrest to ask him about the current thoughts on annealing. He said:

Very few benchrest competitors anneal because:

1. They don't drink the tainted bath water...... (I laughed out loud on the phone!)

2. Benchresters are still science, data, and experience driven. The hard data (targets on the crying wall) doesn't support the need to anneal.

3. The tight tolerances on neck size in benchrest doesn't work harden the brass enough to warrant it. Chambers are still typically cut for thin tight necks for consistency and all cases are neck turned for a tight clearance for that particular chamber neck. Just enough to release the bullet - typically a thou on each side or so .

4. The popularity of sharp shouldered cases (like the PPC) doesn't flow brass into the neck like the old shoulder designs did.

5. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

I accept everything he told me.

I'll add a few more thoughts of my own. Those guys all show up at the range with a machine shop on wheels behind the truck. They fine tune loads the day of the meet. They could easily anneal if they wanted to, but apparently still don't.

Tony Boyer who has more national and international wins than any other competitor in the world and more than 3x as many Hall-of-Fame points as his closest rival does not anneal and says he averages 20 reloads per case. Tony was, and still is, my benchrest idol. He is the one who coined the phrase "The wind is my friend." He said this when asked how he manages so many wins. Basically, he acknowledged that the equipment is amazing, but the wind is what separates the wheat from the chaff.

Mike Ratigan has also won a disproportionate number of national and international competitions. He doesn't anneal either.

When I went through the list, I didn't find a winner who does.

I think each discipline thinks that they lead the pack in terms of skill and equipment. I'm as guilty of thinking that as the next guy. I gravitated to benchrest very early in my life because I liked the data driven, science based approach to development and innovation, I liked the fast paced rate of technology change, and I loved the way they openly shared what they knew.

Any rifle that won't shoot one hole groups in benchrest has little chance of winning. Winning isn't so much about the rifle and load anymore. It's about the shooter's ability to read the wind and conditions, and handle the pressure - there is only 1 hole on that target, 4 bullets are out there, just 1 more to go, you know how, just do it like you always do, ride that shot, the flags have settled in, squeeezzz, BANG! ........... Fk! LMAO!

 

[CWret]

2nd Topic: sonic cleaner
I bought a 6.5 liter sonic cleaner a couple of years ago to try it on my 2 stroke hedge trimmer carb.
It worked and saved a costly carb rebuild at the Stihl dealer. Also used it on the chainsaw carb. So it’s pretty much paid for it’s self now. It has also cleaned small parts and tools. The size is about right for me - but i wouldn’t suggest getting anything smaller. Ya ya - bigger is better. If anyone nearby wants to give it a try - send me PM.
Tried soapy water, varsol and gas (the gas was in the open at the end of a long extension cord). All worked well but i won’t be using gas again. Even with varsol i put it outside. You can buy sonic cleaner liquid from Amazon - but i haven’t tried it.

 

[Chicken lights]

3. The tight tolerances on neck size in benchrest doesn't work harden the brass enough to warrant it. Chambers are still typically cut for thin tight necks for consistency and all cases are neck turned for a tight clearance for that particular chamber neck

Dies with a neck bushing- am I correct that the bushing goes around the outside of the neck- thus when sizing the neck it limits the expansion/helps with concentricity?

 

[CWret]

3rd Topic: Ammo reloads.
I’m quite impressed with the knowledge and involvement that some forum members have on this subject. I’m not surprised that anyone with a lathe and a mill would not be satisfied with buying ammo at Ellwood Epps!
@thestelster ’s post #66 above seems like a good explanation of detonation vs deflagration.
@Susquatch said above “CWret is an explosives expert. He might not agree that he is an expert, but I think he knows WAAAAY more about explosions than the rest of us do. I wonder what he would say about all this....” Well sorry Susq, but I have little to say on this topic. I know that I know about commercial explosives but I also know that I don’t know about ammo propellants.

 

[Susquatch]

Hey @CWret . Nice chemical rack. Way better than mine.

You might want to consider a change though.

It is only a matter of time before one of those containers leaks. It's not if, it's only when. It's happened to me 3 times that I remember. Typically, the container gets a bit brittle or cracks from thermal cycling. The pressure in the high volatility containers changes dramatically with ambient temp changes.

Whatever the reason, one of them will leak and you won't even notice until you open a tool drawer, notice the goop, and have a heart attack.

My method is several layers of absorbent material (even paper towels will work) in a boot tray on a storage rack. My method was even adopted as a best practice for storing pesticides by the group that teaches the pesticides course in Ontario.

You can get boot trays everywhere. I just got some more at Peavey just recently.

Work great for storing oily chain on the floor too.

Well sorry Susq, but I have little to say on this topic. I know that I know about commercial explosives but I also know that I don’t know about ammo propellants.

Spoken just like most experts who really do know what they don't know.......

 

[thestelster]

Dies with a neck bushing- am I correct that the bushing goes around the outside of the neck- thus when sizing the neck it limits the expansion/helps with concentricity?

Concentricity....only if the wall thickness at the neck is consistent. That's why guys turn their necks. You'd be surprised by the amount wall thickness varies....on the same case!

 

[CWret]

Susq - good thought on the spill tray. Thanks
All my liquids in the basement (protection from freezing there) are in a tray or bucket. (My old refrigerators go to the dump without the plastic trays)

 

[Susquatch]

Dies with a neck bushing- am I correct that the bushing goes around the outside of the neck- thus when sizing the neck it limits the expansion/helps with concentricity?

I use bushing dies almost exclusively for target work. Sometimes even for hunting ammo (see caveat below). The idea behind the bushings is to buy them in one thou increments. That way you can size the neck in 1 thou increments (1/2 thou on a side). Basically a custom neck die. Beyond that, the bushings tend to follow the existing expanded neck concentricity and maintain it. This business of following the existing axis is universally accepted, but I confess I'm skeptical. It's not exactly like a Reamer following a hole after all - but maybe it is! In any event, it won't be out a lot in a typical benchrest setup. In fact, I've seen tests where ammo was loaded that was deliberately offset a half thou and it performed just fine.

Caveat - One of the things I've always wondered about but never rigorously tested is the performance of bushings in a hunting rifle chamber (factory chamber) where case clearance can be many thou. I'd think 10 thou or more might not be unusual. In this case, one might find that a regular neck die was actually better. I dunno. I usually load my hunting ammo with a regular neck die and I bump the shoulders a thou or two. I think the majority use a full length die. I don't. More tainted bathwater drinking going on here...... LOL.

 

[PeterT]

The size is about right for me - but i wouldn’t suggest getting anything smaller. Ya ya - bigger is better. If anyone nearby wants to give it a try - send me PM.
Tried soapy water, varsol and gas (the gas was in the open at the end of a long extension cord). All worked well but i won’t be using gas again. Even with varsol i put it outside. You can buy sonic cleaner liquid from Amazon - but i haven’t tried it.

I copied someone's trick where you put small parts in a separate container with cleaning chemical, but submerged in plain water bath (no chemical) since its just a conductor for waves. Seems to work.

I thought any kind of hydrocarbon solvent in an ultrasonic was a real no-no, but I cant recall the issue. Propagating light end gas fumes or potential to ignite the bath itself? Is it a thing or old tale? Might even be in my instructions, maybe I should read them. I've been using the water based degreasers added to water bath to whatever percent makes sense. Some don't get along with aluminum, clean but matte finish depending on %.

 

[6.5 Fan]

"The wind is my friend."

This from Tony Boyer says it all. Our club has been holding monthly 22 rimfire shoots and if you don't watch the flags you are screwed.

 

[CWret]

I copied someone's trick where you put small parts in a separate container with cleaning chemical, but submerged in plain water bath (no chemical) since its just a conductor for waves. Seems to work.

I’ve done that too and it worked well. CAUTION: don’t tighten the top of the container so that gas pressure doesn’t build up.

 

[Bandit]

Ya, that watching flags can make a big difference, and a flag does not have to be a flag, trees, grass, dust, in the flat land,small rocks. When the wind is not steady can be a bear, trying to time wind gusts, the amount of time left to shoot, often a timer to watch, that adds to the fun.
The lathe sure helps to make custom expanders, not to sure what the idea is with some. 45 colt bullets are not the same diameter as 45-70 bullets but the expander is often the same one. I like to make my expanders with an alinement diameter in front of the bullet expanding diameter, and a very smooth longer taper leading to bullet diameter. Some expanders don't have any belling to help start a bullet, not a big deal with a jacketed boat tail, but not so great with flat base lead bullets, yes the case gets worked a bit more, but not as much as a crushed case, LOL.
Or, I wonder what this case would look like with a x? diameter bullet. On and on it can go!
One of the problems with one hole shooting, is as a barrel warms, point of impact can change. Putting meat on the table means the first shot is the one that counts. Hard to get that across some times, many shots-warm barrel, one shot-cold barrel.
An old tip, if out hunting and there is a possibility of snow/etc. falling plugging a barrel, a piece of electrical tape over the end of barrel works well, yes it may change bullet flight slightly, but at normal hunting distance, normal hunting guns, not a problem. Just remember to take tape off at the end of day.
Not sure about bushings, never used them, all my pieces have been factory, just tried to make the best, consistent ammo I could with what I had, and tune the gun as best I could. For hunting ammo, safe pressures, chamber no matter what (short of blockage) work in nearly any normal temps (-40 to 120F). Had to return a sizing die for one gun as it had a tight chamber, RCBS took care of that, no problems, at least till returned to Canadian border.