Parts Washer Solvent

[Susquatch]

Although 3 gr of powder probably produces less case pressure than 42 gr does

"probably" is a good word.

I don't think anyone has ever exhaustively tested this but we do know that charges less than the recommended minimum can result in extremely high pressure. That's one of the reasons why there is a minimum. The mechanisms vary but generally if the charge isn't high enough to keep the bullet going it sticks and then the pressure curve can spike because the chamber plus barrel volume isn't increasing to accommodate the pressure growth in the normal way.

I am very happy to call you my friend so I don't recommend that you try it.

 

[whydontu]

Now, if you want to completely ignore all safety regulations, and are immune to all chemicals (grew up in the 50s/60s so you've already had lots of exposure), this stuff will clean anything. But dissolves any type of elastomer or polymer glove.

PREMIUM GUN WASH - DSS

Solvent based gun wash for cleaning systems. Not for sale in Canada (2024) and California VOC compliant formula coming soon

dominionsureseal.com

 

[Susquatch]

immune to all chemicals (grew up in the 50s/60s so you've already had lots of exposure),

Describes us pretty well if you ask me. Still alive and still breathing stuff that would kill a 50 year old or younger.

 

[Susquatch]

I'll happily "dispose" of unwanted nickel brass for you. I've got a bunch now that half the nickel has worn off and they still load and go pop

I don't think you really want it. Not too many still shoot a 222 today. But we can discuss it in detail next time you visit.

 

[Maker Mike]

I found brake cleaner works really well, so well I looked up the safety precautions and supposedly the trichloroethylene causes Parkinsons.

 

[thestelster]

"probably" is a good word.

I don't think anyone has ever exhaustively tested this but we do know that charges less than the recommended minimum can result in extremely high pressure. That's one of the reasons why there is a minimum. The mechanisms vary but generally if the charge isn't high enough to keep the bullet going it sticks and then the pressure curve can spike because the chamber plus barrel volume isn't increasing to accommodate the pressure growth in the normal way.

I am very happy to call you my friend so I don't recommend that you try it.

From what I've read, the issue with extremely light loads is that it can cause detonation.

Gunpowder is a propellant, not an explosive, so when the primer is ignited, it starts to burn the grains of powder directly in front, which then ignites the grains next to it, and so on and so forth.

Detonation happens with light powder charges in large cases. The grains of powder lay on the bottom of the case. When the primer goes off, the flames travell over top of the powder, which ignites all the powder at the same. The pressure curve is a huge peak, almost instantaneous, and the case and chamber can't handle the pressures and it ruptures.

That is why they often suggest that if you plan to use light loads, to fill the remaining space with kapok, therefore putting the powder in close proximity to the primer.

One of my customers who shoots big bore double rifles, and wanted to just plink with his 500 nitro express. He made up some light loads without a filler in the cases, fired several rounds, no problem. When he touched off the next round the gun exploded, ripped his left thumb right off, his left index finger was hanging by some skin, and damaged the other fingers. He had shrapnel hit him in the face, thank god he was wearing shooting glasses.

 

[DPittman]

From what I've read, the issue with extremely light loads is that it can cause detonation.

Gunpowder is a propellant, not an explosive, so when the primer is ignited, it starts to burn the grains of powder directly in front, which then ignites the grains next to it, and so on and so forth.

Detonation happens with light powder charges in large cases. The grains of powder lay on the bottom of the case. When the primer goes off, the flames travell over top of the powder, which ignites all the powder at the same. The pressure curve is a huge peak, almost instantaneous, and the case and chamber can't handle the pressures and it ruptures.

That is why they often suggest that if you plan to use light loads, to fill the remaining space with kapok, therefore putting the powder in close proximity to the primer.

One of my customers who shoots big bore double rifles, and wanted to just plink with his 500 nitro express. He made up some light loads without a filler in the cases, fired several rounds, no problem. When he touched off the next round the gun exploded, ripped his left thumb right off, his left index finger was hanging by some skin, and damaged the other fingers. He had shrapnel hit him in the face, thank god he was wearing shooting glasses.

Wow I never knew that and would never had expected that. Thanks for the info.

 

[Susquatch]

From what I've read, the issue with extremely light loads is that it can cause detonation.

Your description of what could happen makes great sense. First time I've heard it explained that way. It fits exactly with what I have heard without the explanation.

I think the word detonate is not a good one though. I think detonate is usually used together with explosions. Large flame front might be better. But it's only a word. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Your description is perfect.

@CWret is an explosives expert. He might not agree that he is an expert, but I think he knows WAAAAY more about explosions than the rest of us do. I wonder what he would say about all this.....

Despite my age, I do love learning new things and can still learn new tricks.

 

[Bandit]

There are various thoughts as to why over pressures can result from light loads, I listen/read them as I find them, and just don't do that. Flame fronts are also to be found in engines in hand with detonation, which can destroy an engine.
When reloading with a new to me powder or a new calibre/cartridge, I like to compare a number of different loading manuals as to their recommend powders/amounts to get a better idea of what the results maybe. This sometimes can result in " what the $@!!" This leads to barrel length, primer type, case make, etc.
I have a Martini in a 22 Hornet Improved that would blow primers, turned out to be caused by a tight barrel, .223 instead of .224. Over pressure, here we come!
Have not even got to free bore, twist changing in bore, etc., etc. Shooting wrong length cartridge in short cambers.
Dam, the fun hopefully never ends.
Hmm, I have to choose parts cleaner, as I just got a new to me unit, most likely will be varasol, for heavier cleaning, in hand with non cloro brake clean, sometimes rubbing alcohol, and hopeing for an ultra sonic unit with ?? to be tried/decided on.

 

[thestelster]

Your description of what could happen makes great sense. First time I've heard it explained that way. It fits exactly with what I have heard without the explanation.

I think the word detonate is not a good one though. I think detonate is usually used together with explosions. Large flame front might be better. But it's only a word. A rose by any other name is still a rose. Your description is perfect.

@CWret is an explosives expert. He might not agree that he is an expert, but I think he knows WAAAAY more about explosions than the rest of us do. I wonder what he would say about all this.....

Despite my age, I do love learning new things and can still le

There are various thoughts as to why over pressures can result from light loads, I listen/read them as I find them, and just don't do that. Flame fronts are also to be found in engines in hand with detonation, which can destroy an engine.
When reloading with a new to me powder or a new calibre/cartridge, I like to compare a number of different loading manuals as to their recommend powders/amounts to get a better idea of what the results maybe. This sometimes can result in " what the $@!!" This leads to barrel length, primer type, case make, etc.
I have a Martini in a 22 Hornet Improved that would blow primers, turned out to be caused by a tight barrel, .223 instead of .224. Over pressure, here we come!
Have not even got to free bore, twist changing in bore, etc., etc. Shooting wrong length cartridge in short cambers.
Dam, the fun hopefully never ends.
Hmm, I have to choose parts cleaner, as I just got a new to me unit, most likely will be varasol, for heavier cleaning, in hand with non cloro brake clean, sometimes rubbing alcohol, and hopeing for an ultra sonic unit with ?? to be tried/decided on.

P.O. Ackley has about 20 pages in his book regarding the effects of reduced loads.

 

[thestelster]

I have a Martini in a 22 Hornet Improved that would blow primers, turned out to be caused by a tight barrel, .223 instead

I have a 30 caliber, 35" heavy palma contour barrel that I ordered with .298"/.307" groove/bore dimeters, vs .300"/.308". The plan was to shoot Palma matches using 308 Winchester cartridge with 155-156gr bullets. When shooting those long distances,( 800, 900, 1000yds), with a normal 308 rifle using 155gr. bullets, the bullet will go below the sound barrier and cause a whole bunch of problems to the bullets path. So the idea is to keep bullet velocities above 1,200fps at the target. But the 308 case is pretty small, so you could put faster burning powder to increase the pressures to increase the speed, or you could use a longer barrel (to a point. I believe longer than a certain distance the bullet friction negates the advantages of a longer barrel, but that also depends to the burning rate of the powder), or you could use a tighter bore which increases pressures, allows you to use slower burning powder that properly fills the case.

 

[Bandit]

There are various thoughts as to the sound barrier and a bullets flight also, some keep the bullet below the 1200fps, others above, some want the bullet to cross under 1200fps a distance from the target and stabilize/restabillize before hitting target.
Note, I have never shot Palma, just some for fun shooting to 600 metres, so not any idea of Palma rules. Would think a heavier than 150gr., 180 or so maybe better, longer, higher B.C.
I knew Tommy Fripp, Canadian long distance shooter, believe he was using a 300 Win Mag when he held the title. No idea what bullet etc. he was using. Practicing one day, could not even see where bullets were hitting the ground, then I spotted the tops of some trees a distance to the far side of the range moving a bit. Turned out bullets were hitting more then 20 ft. to side of target. He made a slight correction, on the money then on. An art, science, magic, all of its own.
Longer barrels can/do reduce muzzle blast and some of the 308s and 223s I have shot could use a bit of help in that department, the burning rate verses burning all the powder, etc., etc.

 

[Susquatch]

I have a 30 caliber, 35" heavy palma contour barrel that I ordered with .298"/.307" groove/bore dimeters, vs .300"/.308". The plan was to shoot Palma matches using 308 Winchester cartridge with 155-156gr bullets. When shooting those long distances,( 800, 900, 1000yds), with a normal 308 rifle using 155gr. bullets, the bullet will go below the sound barrier and cause a whole bunch of problems to the bullets path. So the idea is to keep bullet velocities above 1,200fps at the target. But the 308 case is pretty small, so you could put faster burning powder to increase the pressures to increase the speed, or you could use a longer barrel (to a point. I believe longer than a certain distance the bullet friction negates the advantages of a longer barrel, but that also depends to the burning rate of the powder), or you could use a tighter bore which increases pressures, allows you to use slower burning powder that properly fills the case.

Wow........ Lotta different stuff going on there all at once.

I have a program that was developed in Germany that models internal ballistics. I find it pretty good for modelling things like seating depth, case capacity, etc. It will also model bore and land dimensions, etc. I worked with the author a few times to help refine the algorithms.

If you give me the details, I could run various scenarios for you. There is no pretense that it is accurate, but it does tend to do a great job of assessing the relative impact of individual changes and what ifs. I use it in combination with a Labradar Chronograph to fine tune my loads. The program will accept measured corrections to improve its output.

On first blush, I think the smaller bore diameter will increase pressure - both initial due to bullet engraving forces and longer term in transit down the barrel due to decreased effective expansion volume. However, there is always a limit on how high this pressure can be without damage to the rifle and cartridge. I'd guess that faster powder would spike the pressure faster and this might not be good. Therefore, I think slower powder might actually be a better way to do this by spreading the pressure curve out (higher on average from throat to muzzle) and thereby increasing the muzzle velocity. But that's just my guess.

I'd be happy to do some range testing with you and my Labrador. We can probably establish exactly what is happening that way. This data can then establish the internal ballistics. And since the Labrador does multiple velocity measurements, it can also be used to establish the exact ballistics coefficient to calculate downrange velocity to see how close the bullet gets to dropping below the speed of sound.

Lastly, don't forget the effect of temperature on the speed of sound, the air density, and the bullets trajectory.

 

[thestelster]

There are various thoughts as to the sound barrier and a bullets flight also, some keep the bullet below the 1200fps, others above, some want the bullet to cross under 1200fps a distance from the target and stabilize/restabillize before hitting target.
Note, I have never shot Palma, just some for fun shooting to 600 metres, so not any idea of Palma rules. Would think a heavier than 150gr., 180 or so maybe better, longer, higher B.C.
I knew Tommy Fripp, Canadian long distance shooter, believe he was using a 300 Win Mag when he held the title. No idea what bullet etc. he was using. Practicing one day, could not even see where bullets were hitting the ground, then I spotted the tops of some trees a distance to the far side of the range moving a bit. Turned out bullets were hitting more then 20 ft. to side of target. He made a slight correction, on the money then on. An art, science, magic, all of its own.
Longer barrels can/do reduce muzzle blast and some of the 308s and 223s I have shot could use a bit of help in that department, the burning rate verses burning all the powder, etc., etc.

In Palma rules, only 308 Winchester/7.62 Nato with max.156gr. bullets, or 223 Remington/5.56 Nato with max. 91gr. bullets. Iron sights only as well.

In F-class or several other long distance disciplines, almost anything goes, but under 8mm bores. So no 338 Lapua, but big cased cartridges are usually used, 30 magnums, 7mm mags, 6.5mags.

 

[thestelster]

I'd be happy to do some range testing with you and my Labrador. We can probably establish exactly what is happening that way.

Thank you! That's fantastic, but I guess I better build the gun first!! I mean, I've only had the barrel for 6 years now.

 

[stephen@vanisleanodizing.]

On a regular basis, every couple days, I have to disassemble firearms, put all the parts into a parts washer and scrub clean.

For 30+ years I've had my bare hands in that parts washer full of Varsol. I've tried to use gloves, latex and nitrile gloves, but the majority of the parts being washed are quite small, and I can't feel or control those parts with gloves on.

What non-toxic parts washer/degreaser which is affordable and does as good a job as Varsol do you guys recommend?

I am also cleaning firearms & Cerakote applied afterwards. I use Toluene from duncanautomotive.com here in BC and I haven't had a problem ( Dawn dish soap watered down will remove gun oil but not grease, liquid is half bottle Dawn & 1/4 water).

 

[Susquatch]

Thank you! That's fantastic, but I guess I better build the gun first!! I mean, I've only had the barrel for 6 years now.

No worries. I have a few Krieger barrels that have been sitting for 5 or 6 years too....... One is a 5R 308 too, but not tight. I bought it for a friend who changed his mind ....... I get really grumpy when that happens.

 

[Susquatch]

Thank you! That's fantastic, but I guess I better build the gun first!! I mean, I've only had the barrel for 6 years now.

Just thinking, maybe we should do some modelling BEFORE you build the rifle....... We could make some basic assumptions to start with and then twig a few variables to see what happens.

If that looks favourable, you could build the rifle so we can do some testing to calibrate the model.

 

[Chicken lights]

I don't think you really want it. Not too many still shoot a 222 today. But we can discuss it in detail next time you visit.

Your bride is going to have one heck of a farm auction one day

Why on earth are you hoarding 222 cases?

 

[Susquatch]

Your bride is going to have one heck of a farm auction one day

Unfortunately yes.......

Why on earth are you hoarding 222 cases?

The story goes like this. In the early days of benchrest shooting, the 222 dominated most competitions. That's what I cut my teeth on.

When the 22 & 6PPC arrived on the scene, the 222 more or less disappeared from competition. You don't see 222s any more. As far as I know, there are only a few factory rifles chambered for it today and I haven't seen a recent 222 bench gun.


My very first real bench gun was a 222 that Ed Shilen himself built for me well before I started building my own rifles. I still have it. More importantly, I still shoot it at the bench and in the field. In fact I made a snow camo stock for it for winter varmint hunting. The 222 is a terrific little dual purpose cartridge for that.

Basically, the rifle, its furniture, and its past are all as much a part of me and my past as an old sports car or a motorcycle might be to someone else.

I keep those federal silver match cases for it. I also have some speer silver match bullets for it. I know it's silly, but there is something very special about a stainless barrel on a snow camo stock with silver bullets and silver brass.

The other thing is that I built a 222 rifle for a friend who loved my rifle and wanted one like it. His shoots even better than mine cuz the technology and methods have all improved. Since I have a 222 Match Reamer now, I've been busy pulling together the parts to build a state-of-the-art 222 light Varmint Bench Gun for myself too.