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Variable speed press drill

So its the same torque? I did not dispute that, au contraire, I stated it as is fact. However torque must increase, not stay the same, to have the same power @ 10Hz.
No one cares about HP. (Or very few people) That's the problem throwing HP around be it Sears HP or some other HP. It's a nice number when you are trying to sell something. Easier to use than writing up amps, volts and torque and trying to relate them all together. But isn't important other than matching the VFD to the Motor.

The long and short of it is that if it takes X amount of torque to turn a 1/2" drill bit into steel to make chips then as long as the motor can create that torque at some RPM value it's really all we care about. And whether you can drill the hole in 3 seconds at 1750 RPM or 30 seconds at 175 RPM becomes a production issue. Certainly not a home shop issue. Especially since at higher speeds heat and work holding become way more important.
 
I used to have an older import floor standing drill press with 3 sheaves and a single phase motor. I really hated it, it was always slipping belts at low speeds.

I’ve used the nova voyager ones before in school and they work really well but I can see how a malfunction would be frustrating since it’s all digital. I’ve looked into them a bit and for anyone that’s curious they use a switched/variable reluctance motor. It’s closed loop control, similar to a servo motor. Lots of power in a small package but complex electronics to manage it.
 
No one cares about HP. (Or very few people) That's the problem throwing HP around be it Sears HP or some other HP. It's a nice number when you are trying to sell something. Easier to use than writing up amps, volts and torque and trying to relate them all together. But isn't important other than matching the VFD to the Motor.

No one cares about HP? So 1/4 HP is as good as 3 HP? As I said, the three are inexorably linked so its not about caring about one or the others, its about understanding and carry what is happening and how they interrelate. If you care about rpm's and torque, you are carrying about power (HP) without even knowing it :D.

The long and short of it is that if it takes X amount of torque to turn a 1/2" drill bit into steel to make chips then as long as the motor can create that torque at some RPM value it's really all we care about.

Without a mechanical transmission I posit we very much care about at what rpm it generates that necessary torque as the only rpm we have available is the speed we are drilling at. With a transmission, I agree....but then its more a discussion of motor sizing. I've stuck to what happens with speed reduction without a transmission and what happens when you use a VFD for speed reduction

And whether you can drill the hole in 3 seconds at 1750 RPM or 30 seconds at 175 RPM becomes a production issue. Certainly not a home shop issue. Especially since at higher speeds heat and work holding become way more important.

We are agreeing in that I stated that in the beginning, that if the resultant lower power from VFD speed reduction is enough for the task at hand, peace. No issue. The point is there's also going to be tons of instances where it won't be adequate .....like the OP's Q. Going from 1/2 HP at 2500 rpm to 250 rpm on a DP with the intent to drill a 1/2" hole in steel, I maintain that a VFD speed reduction is sub-optimal to the point of it just working. VFD + transmission, it'll work perfectly and cover all the basis.
 
No one cares about HP? So 1/4 HP is as good as 3 HP? As I said, the three are inexorably linked so its not about caring about one or the others, its about understanding and carry what is happening and how they interrelate. If you care about rpm's and torque, you are carrying about power (HP) without even knowing it :D.
Well yes and no. HP is a derived value based on Torque and it a nice simple way of comparing things. And certainly if you decide you need X amount of Torque at Y amount of RPM you can then either figure out HP and specify your motor based on that but don't forget you need voltage too.

Or you decide you want to drill a half inch hole and to avoid overheating the drill bit or the material and have it work harden on you the choice value for specifying what you need is surface speed. (Useful for lathes too) Along with that depth of cut or chip loading.

And if I'm happy with or restricted to 20 FPM for surface speed then all I need is 152 RPM. Bottom corner shows I require 0.04HP. Well within the range of 1/20 of 1.5HP.

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And if I decide I can, with massive flood coolant keep the tool bit and material cool enough I might want 40 FPM. Now we're over the 1/20th of 1.5HP but then we're also not turning 1/20th the speed. It's just under 1/6th the speed and that works out to 1/4 HP available and yet only need 0.088 HP.

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All that brings us back to watts which I believe is still a better indication of power required. If 745W is 1 HP then 0.088HP is 65W. Hmmm... If the VFD is a high quality type unit using things like Back EMF to measure motor performance (speed) then that 310VDC I mentioned earlier at 300 RPM (about 10 Hz) could still put 12A into the motor windings. Way more than 65W.

Be aware there are different kinds of VFDs using alternative approaches to generating 3 phase power. And some are way better and also way more expensive.

But I sense this may be turning into a shouting match :( and that wasn't my intention. It's just that I feel picking an HP value, de-rating it and then using that as an "it can't be done" is not the best approach. I have yet to figure out how Sears came up with 4.5HP for my shop vac.
And if we ignore the term HP completely and use current, voltage, Torque and RPM we are on better footing to decide if something will work or not.

My 2 cents.
 
90 VDC motor with chopped DC / PWM control. Not a VFD, but very vaguely analogous to a VFD. DC narrow pulse width low RPM, motor voltage is high but winding impedance greatly restricts motor current. Low power.
They aren't the same unless it's a really cheap VFD.
If you use one of the Brushed Treadmill motor drives for the 90VDC treadmill motors you may have noticed that you have to turn the speed knob up until the motor starts turning. Then you can turn the knob back to get the motor to slow down to a speed slower than the start up speed.

That's your typical PWM control and has to do with overcoming static verses kinetic friction and that once the motor is turning the momentum means it doesn't stop instantly if you remove power. So now the PWM can be less and the motor turns more slowly.

The better DC motor controllers will use back emf and current sensing to do speed control. Even without an encoder. But that's why once you close the loop you can't stop the spindle turning at low RPM. But it requires closed loop.
 
They aren't the same unless it's a really cheap VFD.
If you use one of the Brushed Treadmill motor drives for the 90VDC treadmill motors you may have noticed that you have to turn the speed knob up until the motor starts turning. Then you can turn the knob back to get the motor to slow down to a speed slower than the start up speed.

That's your typical PWM control and has to do with overcoming static verses kinetic friction and that once the motor is turning the momentum means it doesn't stop instantly if you remove power. So now the PWM can be less and the motor turns more slowly.

The better DC motor controllers will use back emf and current sensing to do speed control. Even without an encoder. But that's why once you close the loop you can't stop the spindle turning at low RPM. But it requires closed loop.
John, so wildly off onto a tangent, but I know you are well versed in this stuff:

What about using a hefty stepper motor for spindle drive? Taking my mill as an example, would replacing the high-RPM low torque permanent-magnet DC motor with a stepper be viable? Like the NEMA 34 1600 oz-in motor i bought for your ELS?

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Show a spec sheet with torque increasing or HP staying constant as frequency moves down from line.

This is our fundamental disagreement. Your claim is correct, my problem is that I don't care if the HP goes down. I fully appreciate and I agree that the amount of work I can do in a given amount of time goes down with RPM below 60 Hz. I am ok with doing less work. That doesn't mean I can't get the job done.

The way I see it goes like this. Most machinists want bigger machines. Those who machine for a living have huge high horsepower machines for a reason - productivity matters. If you don't have high productivity you go broke.

A hobbiest can't always afford the big machine no matter how much he might like one. So he must usually figure out how to get the job done with what he has. If that means fewer pounds of chips per hour, or less water pumped per hour, or whatever, so be it. A VFD can help make that possible.

Agreed, however I'm speaking in practical terms to give the OP info on how to or not proceed.

Ya, you hit home with that one. I'm a bit worried that we are drowning @Marc Moreau with our debate. I'm also worried that many others who might be in his boat cannot follow the nuances of what we are discussing. As others have said, a lot depends on whether or not he gets a VFD Rated motor. Although you can run a non-rated motor at the low speeds we are discussing, you can't do it for very long without damaging it. So practically speaking, we are not gunna do less than maybe 50% of rated rpm or more than about 125% of rated rpm. Both numbers are what I have found to be recommended by many VFD motor manufacturers.

The motor on my mill is a zero rated VFD ready motor. It doesn't need supplemental cooling even at 0 rpm and the bearings are rated for well over double the 60Hz speed (120hz). I do not push those limits. Right now, my VFD is programmed to operate between 6 and 120Hz. That's a 20:1 speed range. It performs flawlessly within that range. However, I don't push its limits, and I don't hesitate to use the back gear and sometimes even the pulley system to generate more torque or speed as needed. But I got a great deal on the motor. I'm not advocating that everyone else run out and buy one of those puppies. I've been looking for one for my lathe. It hasn't happened yet.

What feed rate do you propose to drill a 1/2" hole with 1/20HP? 1/10,000 per rev? The edge any mortal could put on the drill would simply skip over surface, i.e. would not be sharp enough to set up a shear plane for so small a chip.

Yes, I considered that myself as I suggested it. I wondered if you would challenge the sharpness limits. You didn't disappoint me! But I am a bit disappointed that you didn't raise the issue of surface burnishing. LOL! Regardless, that's what happens when you push a debate to its limits. Both of us have done that in this discussion. Although I could suggest drilling with a diamond drill bit, it's a silly adventure only intended to avoid being backing into a corner. As you suggest, I'd prefer to stay on the important points that are meaningful to us as hobbiests, not whether or not the theoretical limits are practical or vice versa.

Whatever the feedrate and time, wouldn't you agree that 1/20HP at the drill and ages to drill a hole is suboptimal compared to 1/2 HP (ignoring losses) via a mechanical transmission at the drill and minutes to make the hole? Thats what matters to the OP's inquiry and was my point.

I agree with your point totally.

I especially agree that the OP and other reader's benefit more from a practical discussion of what they can or can't do (or should do) to realistically achieve their goals. Since I would never practically recommend drilling that slowly let alone run a motor that slow, it comes back to my initial recommendation which I believe is totally practical and I hope that you agree with which is:

Keep the belt pulley system to provide the torque multiplication or high speed needed on occasion and get a VFD to minimize the number of belt changes required on a regular basis and to facilitate fine tuning to the desired performance. This latter benefit can be maximized by getting a VFD rated motor which provides a much wider frequency/speed range than a regular duty motor does. But that has to be weighed against the higher cost.
 
John, so wildly off onto a tangent, but I know you are well versed in this stuff:

What about using a hefty stepper motor for spindle drive? Taking my mill as an example, would replacing the high-RPM low torque permanent-magnet DC motor with a stepper be viable? Like the NEMA 34 1600 oz-in motor i bought for your ELS?

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I've always been a bit insecure about using stepping motors for spindles. I listen to a stepper motor move and it always has that 'noise' which I feel would create vibration for lathe surface finish. So I wouldn't use one for the spindle.

I went with an AC Servo for my spindle and first had LinuxCNC running it with PWM to a 0-10V converter. That little Chinese BoB does that on the DB25-1 pin. I then switched to step/dir since the AC servo drive could handle that too. My AC motor/drive combination is 1.8kW and runs to 3000 RPM. I've power tapped with it at 100 RPM. I went with 1.8kW because the original single phase motor was 220VAC and 10A. I guess that would be 2.2kW but it was also listed as 2HP so what with efficiency I figured 1,8kW would be enough. I've had more issues with belt slippage rather than motor stalling.

My South Bend has a 3 phase 1HP Baldor motor. I bought a GS1 VFD for about $125. They don't make that one anymore but then that was also 10 years ago. I run it between about 20Hz to 120Hz. And still use the belts and back gear.

This is where I bought my VFD. https://www.automationdirect.com
They have a range from about $135 to $700 depending on the quality.
A bit of research shows there are some newer sensorless VFDs out there with 32 bit processors. That's where the real improvements have happened. So much more processing power for drives now and I guess why the range from $135 to $700.
 
But I sense this may be turning into a shouting match :( and that wasn't my intention.

Agreed, nor is it mine. I do like the pressing of the discussion, makes for learning, but yours is a good reminder we have to try understand what the other is saying.
Well yes and no. HP is a derived value based on Torque and it a nice simple way of comparing things.
HP is just a unit of power. Where ever I've said HP, substitute "power" if you like. Or watts, ergs, kilowatts, btu....doesn't matter, they are all just units of power and can be converted from one to the other.

Its a reactive load, power changes with frequency, so current and potential I don't think does any more for us than rpm and torque. Regardless, the VFD makers information makes it clear than power drops pretty much linearly with speed.

There seems something off in that calculation screen. What calculator is it? The rule of thumb is about 1hp (750 watts if you like) for a removal rate of one cubic per minute. The Kennametal calculator suggests it needs .12 HP. What is the power factor? Of course real world its going to take more, friction etc, so KM's .12 might be .15 which matches with the rule of thumb.

It's just that I feel picking an HP value, de-rating it and then using that as an "it can't be done" is not the best approach.

I think what I've said is VFD is a sub-optimal way to get speed reduction and at the same time said if its good enough for what the person is doing, peace. How is there an argument to that? imo you are not going to have much lucking drill that hole as stated by the OP, I can stop a motor by hand when a VFD is dialed down 90%. I have a 1.5 hp motor on a little Schaublin (way overpowered) yet its useless a very slow speeds ( without a belt change). Speed reduction by VFD proves impractical in lots of cases.

Nevertheless, if you can, like I said from the get go, great! Doesn't change the fact that a near linear drop in power with RPM is sub-optimal and doing so it could be poor advice as in many cases it will matter a lot.
 
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Doesn't change the fact that a near linear drop in power with RPM is sub-optimal and doing so it could be poor advice as in many cases it will matter a lot.

Well said. I really like the word "sub-optimal". Leaves lots of room for the fact the world is not black and white - it is colour and many shades of grey.

Maybe, by the time this pesky subject comes up again, I can complete an analysis of the tradeoffs between tool diameter, speed, feed rate, material removal rate, torque, and power to put some substance to what is really needed so we can make some meaningful recommendations about the practical limits of what a VFD can do. I'm thinking perhaps that the word sub-optimal is really anything below an intersection point on a family's sets of curves (a family being material and tool specific), although it might also be a set of points that define another curve or perhaps even anything below or above the design speed of the motor, or or or

Regardless, I think it would be infinitely better than debating theoretical limits that nobody in their right mind would really ever do.

It's either that or start a new thread dedicated to the subject so that everyone can participate and contribute to its development.

Then again, perhaps a tooling company has already done this.... Wouldn't that be nice!
 
Ha Ha after 4 pages of this electrical mumbo jumbo , I've come to the conclusion that the only viable option for the OP for...and every one else for that mater is, instead of changing to VFD, we should all change to a combustion engine drive unit for HP, with an 18 speed Fuller for rotational speed and fine tune the torque requirements with the infinite throttle settings available.....problem solved!!
 
Ha Ha after 4 pages of this electrical mumbo jumbo , I've come to the conclusion that the only viable option for the OP for...and every one else for that mater is, instead of changing to VFD, we should all change to a combustion engine drive unit for HP, with an 18 speed Fuller for rotational speed and fine tune the torque requirements with the infinite throttle settings available.....problem solved!!
Only issue I see here is gas or diesel, then we get back to the torque verses horsepower issue again.
I can almost see it now.... A 6-71 Jimmy screaming like a wild banshee mated to a twin stick 5 and 4 (incase you need back gears), you more refined folks might want a 3406e with jake heads for quick spindle speed changes.......
 
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