Mazda 6 doesn't like Canadian winters

[Elektrishun]

a weak starter will still start on a fresh battery, its when the battery is low, or cold outside, bad windings/corroded windings cause to high of a draw and slow cranking or just straight up no start

Fair enough.
But shouldn't there be a gradual degradation in starting even during the summer months when starting is consistent? This will be the 3rd winter with the cold start issue.

With my truck the "starts" seemed to get a little tougher every couple of days. Finally it became obvious that I had to replace it. Maybe it's not always the same symptoms?

 

[phaxtris]

Fair enough.
But shouldn't there be a gradual degradation in starting even during the summer months when starting is consistent? This will be the 3rd winter with the cold start issue.

With my truck the "starts" seemed to get a little tougher every couple of days. Finally it became obvious that I had to replace it. Maybe it's not always the same symptoms?

starting in the summer is easy, relatively, weak starters, battery's, connections usually rear there ugly heads when its cold, when starting is difficult, requiring more torque and current (due to the increased starting torque and the generally lower battery voltage). As mentioned cold weather also has the tendency to loosen already loose connections, adding resistance, reducing the voltage to the starter and increasing current demand as a result

 

[Darren]

I had to diagnose a Nissan Frontier no start outside because everytime I pushed it in the shop it would suddenly start reliably within 5 mins of being in the shop. Turned out it was a bad ecm, I found it by heating up the ecm with a heatgun while the truck was outside at -20. It was a like a switch. at -10 it would start everytime. At -15 it never would.

 

[Jswain]

Battery in my frontier limped through quite a few winters being crap.

Had a battery blanket and a block heater. If both plugged in would start in -48c no problem. If both unplugged -20c and below not likely or very slow.

When pretty much new I ran it dead once, accidentally, I think a door was partially left open and truck sat outside for 20 days without being started in the cold. Lots of parking in camp parking lots for 20+ days at a time without running.

Summertime, and -15c or warmer and would start like a brand new battery.

Doesn't take much to make a brand new battery act like that.

 

[Elektrishun]

I had to diagnose a Nissan Frontier no start outside because everytime I pushed it in the shop it would suddenly start reliably within 5 mins of being in the shop. Turned out it was a bad ecm, I found it by heating up the ecm with a heatgun while the truck was outside at -20. It was a like a switch. at -10 it would start everytime. At -15 it never would.

According to a Mazda dealership tech I spoke with recently, there is an older TSB that includes the 2010 Mazda 6 for a "frozen starter relay" that can be upgraded. Mazda owners who experienced this problem prior to the TSB and realized it was the relay could pull the relay, bring it indoors/heat it up, reinstall, and the car would start.

Getting back to my situation - when the issue occurs nothing has ever been heated up except for the battery when I have brought it indoors to charge. Once the battery is charged the car starts. Everything else in the vehicle is still sitting at whatever temp. it currently is at the time. So these type of issues don't seem related to my problem.

I am thinking if the battery were currently an issue it is a secondary issue. The primary issue is what is causing the battery to gradually lose it's charge. I believe that is a good way to look at this?

While we're talking... I am still researching the voltage drop test. What is the proper way to disable the ignition? Some pull the fuse to disable the ignition. Others suggest you should pull the fuse for the fuel pump. Some suggest both. Then others say, disable the ignition but floor the accelerator to prevent the fuel related issues with injectors pulsing and the cylinders being washed with fuel constantly, etc.. In one of the videos I posted it looks like the guy is starting and running the vehicle during the test.

Suggestions? Appreciated as always.

 

[Darren]

Sometimes I pull fuses, relays or even unplug coils. Disabling fuel or spark, whatever is easiest. Usually i'll try to pull the fuel pump relay, if it has one.

Flooring the accelerator puts it in 'clear flood mode' and disables injectors.

Fully charging the battery is masking the real problem.

One quick test I sometimes will do is when the problem occurs, hook a jumper cable from the battery negative to the engine block/alternator mount etc. If it changes anything you have a ground problem.

 

[ShawnR]

When I first read, the first post, my thought was the start solenoid or relay in that circuit. I see that that has been discussed, but I do think a contact somewhere would be the issue, or as @Darren and others have eluded to, something electronic. I would suggest applying heat (hair dryer, heat gun but gently) to one component at a time,ie, the starter/solenoid, ECM, etc. The ignition push button starts it all and any contact anywhere can be affected by the ambient temperature, and see if it goes from no go to go. I had a plane once that was intermittent, and it was the ignition switch itself. If the load test on the battery shows good, and those connections are good, I would move on. You could try an interior heater since the pushbutton and some electronics are in the vehicle. If this does nothing, look further under the hood. Even hearing a relay clicking is, although a good sign, not proof it is switching.

I am assuming, although I could not find it mentioned directly, that the car is not even cranking, yes? It goes from cranking normally and starting when warmish, then won't even crank when cold? If I misunderstood, then disregard.....

A great virtual support crew here! You are in good hands.

Just my $0.02

 

[Ironman]

BUT I am suggesting that the overall design of this particular vehicle MIGHT have a charging/starting system that can't handle really cold winter conditions.

Darren's suggestion of the voltage drop test is my next step.

I would say you nailed it perfectly. These "modern" computer controlled alternators will betray you. When this happens, I go to the alternator place OTS and buy a one wire self exciting alternator, problem goes away. Unless alternator abuse has damaged the battery.

 

[Susquatch]

I am assuming, although I could not find it mentioned directly, that the car is not even cranking, yes? It goes from cranking normally and starting when warmish, then won't even crank when cold?

I understand it cranks but won't start. What I don't know yet, is how fast it cranks when it doesn't start vs how fast it cranks when it does.

 

[phaxtris]

i thought it had slow to no cranking when it wouldnt start ?

 

[ShawnR]

i thought it had slow to no cranking when it wouldnt start ?

OK, my bad then. I did not see that. I would still be exploring the solenoid and starter in that case.

 

[Tool Room Mike]

This is the 3rd winter where I have been trying to sort out my son's 2010 Mazda 6 "fail to start" issues. What I know so far:
- Starts perfect up until temperature drops to around -25 Celsius
- 2 year old battery tests good
- Alternator tests good
- Terminals are clean
- No parasitic amp draw found
- No other obvious issues related to starting
- Block heater was found to be unplugged from block but is now plugged in and tested working but still fails to start after sitting for a couple of days
- Anti-freeze is good

Known factors that likely contribute to cold starting issues:
- The car will sit without being driven for longer periods of time in the winter (sitting idle in the cold saps some of the starting energy).
- When my son does drive the car it is mostly short trips around the city (not enough to charge the battery).
- the car has a lot of electronic sensors and accessories that add extra load when starting.

We decided the next step was either:
- a battery with higher CCA and reserve
- or an onboard charger/maintainer.

Last time the car failed to start I pulled the battery, charged it up, did a load test/voltage drop test, put it back in, and as usual it started without issue. The car was still sitting in the cold with the block heater plugged in so the only thing that changed was charging the battery. We decided to get a NOCO 2D Genius on-board charger/maintainer.

Checked online and the nearest Canadian Tire had 16...until I got to the store. Now they had zero in stock. I talked to someone at Customer Service about checking the other stores. While they checked another staff member found 1 in the store. Back on track.

Installed the charger/maintainer today (bottom right of image). The most time consuming part was planning and executing the layout which included a short block heater extension cord with multiple outlets. I have it set-up so that the Mazda's block heater cord and NOCO charger cord both plug into the block heater extension cord which is neatly tucked in under the hood out of harms way. The block heater extension cord male end runs out through the lower front grill in the same place where the block heater cord used to exit. Now my son only has to plug-in one cord to power both devices. As well, if he forgets to unplug before driving away he will likely damage the single block heater extension cord end.

View attachment 56204

This year winter came earlier than usual. I am certain there will be plenty of extreme cold weather yet to come. Before the snow melts we will find out if the charger/maintainer solves the starting issues.

Lastly, clearly some cars are not designed with Canadian winters in mind. My wife owned a Honda Prelude back in the early 90's. Once the Honda was sold it has been all Chevs and Fords. All of them have been good winter starting vehicles when proper maintenance is included. The Mazda is my first experience playing mechanic on an import (the 2nd is my daughter's older Hyundai Tucson which has been a great all around vehicle). There are clues that some of these cars are not built for Canadian winters.

Clue #1 - the 2010 Mazda doesn't even mention a block heater in their owner's manual. The Canadian dealerships installed them. Compare that to my wife's 2009 Chev Uplander that not only mentions a block heater but that there is a temperature switch in the circuit that closes at -19 Celsius. Designed for cold weather? Yep.

Clue #2 - after searching online for a $200 battery with higher CCA all I could find that "fits" this Mazda is 600 CCA with a reserve of 95. The OEM is 590 CCA with a reserve of 90. I compared that to a 2010 Ford Taurus SE where I found batteries with 850 CCA with a reserve of 130-150 (comparing Mazda's 3.7L V6 to Ford's 3.5L V6). Even the 3.8L V6 Uplander has options up to 850 CCA (not sure what battery is currently installed).

Nonetheless, once the engine fires up I think the Mazda 6 is a great car and a lot of fun to drive.

I had serious issues with starting on few Vehicles. I found if tuned up fresh fuel decent compression quite often the Ignition Coil itself is at fault. Newer vehicles have a coil per cylinder system. Id check each coil with a Meter...replace weak Ones and Best of success.

 

[Susquatch]

Here is a photo of my shunt system I described earlier. This one installs in series and outputs 75mv at 100 amps.

There are much bigger and much smaller ones available.

Here is a 500A 50mv shunt on Amazon. They are much less money on Ali.

https://a.co/d/gE5VVeV