YYC - Resurface turbo exhaust manifold

[digitalbilly]

So tell us how you did it!

so first I found a piece of granite that was long enfough to slide the whole manifold on it with keeping it flat.

Next I used a razor blade and glass cleaner to clean the granite to make sure there is no dirt and debris on it.
Scraping the Granite while keeping the blade flat not to gouge into the granite.

After that I checked for flatness using my precision strait edge for checking engine blocks with my feeler gauge set. .0015 inch

I figured out the material on the manifold is really hard steel.

Used thin coat of spray glue on the back of the sand a paper sheets.
I was able to get 3 sheets glued next to each other in a row.

I placed the manifold on top only using the weight of the manifold I gently moved the manifold back and forth to remove material slowly holding the manifold as flat as possible by hand.

Occasionally checking the manifold with strait edge.
Checking 3 places accross and diagonally corner to corner in a X pattern making sure the manifold stays flat making I mark the manifolds high spots with a sharpie to be sure to remove the high spots.

Continue to remove material with 60-grit. Once things were getting close. Which was when the sand paper was loosing its cutting edge. I switch to 80-grit then to finish off to 120 gritt.

Sand paper clogged up quickly so I kept a shop vacuum around to remove the loose material.

I ended up using 3 sheets of sandpaper for each grit.

Total time 4hours
Total cost $15 CAD
Labour to do myself and a skill to practice priceless.

 

[Susquatch]

Excellent!

That's funny cuz when I looked at your manifold photo, I said to myself that they looked like steel flanges! But I wasn't going to start a debate that didn't matter.

Congrats on a fine job!

 

[digitalbilly]

120 grit really polished it up I guess I could have just used 60 grit as it would cut a lot faster and save me a bit of time.. as the sandpaper loosing it’s cutting ability I could of ended up with same results.

 

[Susquatch]

120 grit really polished it up I guess I could have just used 60 grit as it would cut a lot faster and save me a bit of time.. as the sandpaper loosing it’s cutting ability I could of ended up with same results.

Maybe, but don't forget the importance of gasket sealing. You did it right.

 

[Humblebum]

Hi seeking if anyone local here can help me and keep it within the hobbyist community
if there's anyone in Calgary or even in the Calgary NE area who can help that would be great!

I have seen some youtube of people using a large belt-type sander or milling machine.

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Hi. You could try the Aero Museum on McKnight Boulevard NE. They have a machine shop for completing work on the aircraft they are restoring, and if you offer a donation to the museum, one of the excellent volunteers may do the job for you. Another alternative, although not a hobbyist option, is Aero Tech Welding also on McKnight Blvd., (off Edmonton Trail N.E. more or less behind Golden Acres Garden Centre), who have machine shop facilities. As you may be aware, labour rate is $75.00 minimum, so may not be you preferred choice.

 

[Humblebum]

I missed the latest replies so if you have successfully done the job, the above locations may be an option for the future?

 

[digitalbilly]

Maybe, but don't forget the importance of gasket sealing. You did it right.

gasket sealing yeah I got multi-layered stainless OEM Toyota Gaskets that should seal without issue

 

[Dabbler]

Congrats!

 

[Susquatch]

gasket sealing yeah I got multi-layered stainless OEM Toyota Gaskets that should seal without issue

So, what I meant by my comment was that sanding with 80 grit might look good and perhaps even be ok as the paper loses grit, but there will still be 80 grit grooves in the surface that will make perfect sealing difficult even with the best Gaskets.

By using successively smaller grits the way you did, you get rid of those grooves which means you will "probably" get better sealing.

It's also important to know that some Gaskets actually require a bit of roughness to seal properly. It's always best to follow the manufacturers recommendations for surface finish and gasket. Otherwise you are at risk of guessing wrong.

The other thing about Gaskets and for that matter engines in general is that there are thousands of mom and pop shops, motor heads, and racing buffs who all think they know more than the manufacturer. I just laugh.

 

[Chicken lights]

So, what I meant by my comment was that sanding with 80 grit might look good and perhaps even be ok as the paper loses grit, but there will still be 80 grit grooves in the surface that will make perfect sealing difficult even with the best Gaskets.

By using successively smaller grits the way you did, you get rid of those grooves which means you will get "probably" get better sealing.

It's also important to know that some Gaskets actually require a bit of roughness to seal properly. It's always best to follow the manufacturers recommendations for surface finish and gasket. Otherwise you are at risk of guessing wrong.

The other thing about Gaskets and for that matter engines in general is that there are thousands of mom and pop shops, motor heads, and racing buffs who all think they know more than the manufacturer. I just laugh.

I wouldn’t say you’re wrong, I’d probably say there’s a time and place for knowing which surfaces need better sealing

Exhaust, with a gasket? Probably less critical

Head gasket? Probably better to follow specs

You can “make” many gaskets with plain RTV silicone, too, it’s not necessarily correct but it can work

Generally, I’ve been taught to use a silicone product on a factory gasket, to double down on possible problems. Even seals should get packed with an additive plus silicone or loctite before install.

 

[DPittman]

So, what I meant by my comment was that sanding with 80 grit might look good and perhaps even be ok as the paper loses grit, but there will still be 80 grit grooves in the surface that will make perfect sealing difficult even with the best Gaskets.

By using successively smaller grits the way you did, you get rid of those grooves which means you will "probably" get better sealing.

It's also important to know that some Gaskets actually require a bit of roughness to seal properly. It's always best to follow the manufacturers recommendations for surface finish and gasket. Otherwise you are at risk of guessing wrong.

The other thing about Gaskets and for that matter engines in general is that there are thousands of mom and pop shops, motor heads, and racing buffs who all think they know more than the manufacturer. I just laugh.

Yeah I laugh too but often at the manufactures designs and recommendations when they act like they are the only "all knowing" masters, despite all the hairbrain and stupid designs and flaws they manufactured into their engines/vehicles. New vehicle warranty work and shops full of newer models are a testament to that they don't always know best (at least from a consumers standpoint).

 

[Dabbler]

On a head gasket, you gotta do what you gotta do.

For machine tool gaskets, however, things can be different.

No gasket will seal without proper prep on both surfaces. My leBlond leaked for 40 years until I reprepped both surfaces, and used a medium soft synthetic gasket material in .020 thickness. No leaks. It was previously sealed with the orange silicone gasket stuff - probably poorly applied - but I've never gotten that stuff to work in many attempts.

I've had to make a bunch of gaskets for machine tools. I have 3 types of gasket material in stock, from very soft to hard. Even in cases where an oil pool is being contained in a split line, I usually revert back to cardboard with grease well rubbed in.

When I have the info I use the correct synthetic, but I've had great conformity with the cardboard.

(with apologies to the OP for diverting the thread)

 

[terry_g]

Good sealing will also require properly torquing the manifold bolts. What condition are the bolts in? After thirty plus years they may have stretched. They are probably high temp high strength bolts. I'm not sure if Iconel bolts were around in 1991. What are new bolts worth from Toyota?

 

[Former Member]

@Susquatch Since you are talking about seals and the engineers know best, consider when the space shuttle blew up because of the rocket seals failing and the solution years later. My dads comment was before that was even determined the seals failed because of faulty design because the master craftsmen knew better. I challenged him on this and and he pulled out an old text on seals and showed me the why and how weeks later.....years later NASA released their findings.

So even though I'm an engineer, I was taught to be humble enough to know that there is a better way for those willing to look and work for it.

Which is why we wear a ring on our pinkie to remind us that arrogance is the failure that causes failure.

 

[Susquatch]

Yeah I laugh too but often at the manufactures designs and recommendations when they act like they are the only "all knowing" masters, despite all the hairbrain and stupid designs and flaws they manufactured into their engines/vehicles. New vehicle warranty work and shops full of newer models are a testament to that they don't always know best (at least from a consumers standpoint).

Well, that was deserved.

What you say is true. There are far too many in the shop. I sincerely hope none of them are any of those that I worked on during my career. Yet, in my heart of hearts, I know that some probably are.

The OEM's definitely make mistakes. Sometimes too many of them. A bad design is a bad design.

But there is another side to that perspective too. There are something just shy of 40 million vehicles on the road in Canada. Probably half a billion in the USA. They are not all in the shop. The vast majority of them go over 250 thousand clicks without any serious problems. Day after day, mile after mile. I do not know even one job shop that could design and build just one engine from scratch that could do that, let alone hundreds of thousands of copies that also meet the emissions and fuel efficiency standards of today. Yet the OEM's do it all the time. And they are not working on today's standards, they are working on standards that will apply over the next decade.

I freely and openly confess that I am badly biased. A 35 year career in Automotive R&D has done that to me.

But at the same time I'm also embarrassed to admit that you are absolutely right. There are far too many in the shop.

I also confess that I am extremely embarrassed to think that the way I express the experience I gained during my time designing engines and other parts of a vehicle might be coming across to others like I think I am one of those "all knowing masters" you refer to. That's not somebody I want to be.

Our forum is a place where we share our experience and knowledge with others to everyone's benefit. I know beyond any doubt that I have benefitted in many ways from the expertise and knowledge of many other members who know way more than I do in their world. I like to do the same with whatever experience I can share of my own. But sometimes, I say stupid things like laughing at some shop who thinks they know more about gaskets and surface finish than the manufacturer does. It was an unnecessary stupid comment and I regret saying it.

I know I'll probably pull dumb stunts like that again in my efforts to contribute. It goes with getting old, and underthinking things. But that doesn't make me any less sorry for doing it and I do promise to try harder in future not to.

Being humble is an even more difficult task. I do love a good friendly debate. Suffice to say that I am old enough and know enough to know that I know virtually nothing. I'll have to try even harder to emphasize the nothing part.

 

[DPittman]

Well, that was deserved.

What you say is true. There are far too many in the shop. I sincerely hope none of them are any of those that I worked on during my career. Yet, in my heart of hearts, I know that some probably are.

The OEM's definitely make mistakes. Sometimes too many of them. A bad design is a bad design.

But there is another side to that perspective too. There are something just shy of 40 million vehicles on the road in Canada. Probably half a billion in the USA. They are not all in the shop. The vast majority of them go over 250 thousand clicks without any serious problems. Day after day, mile after mile. I do not know even one job shop that could design and build just one engine from scratch that could do that, let alone hundreds of thousands of copies that also meet the emissions and fuel efficiency standards of today. Yet the OEM's do it all the time. And they are not working on today's standards, they are working on standards that will apply over the next decade.

I freely and openly confess that I am badly biased. A 35 year career in Automotive R&D has done that to me.

But at the same time I'm also embarrassed to admit that you are absolutely right. There are far too many in the shop.

I also confess that I am extremely embarrassed to think that the way I express the experience I gained during my time designing engines and other parts of a vehicle might be coming across to others like I think I am one of those "all knowing masters" you refer to. That's not somebody I want to be.

Our forum is a place where we share our experience and knowledge with others to everyone's benefit. I know beyond any doubt that I have benefitted in many ways from the expertise and knowledge of many other members who know way more than I do in their world. I like to do the same with whatever experience I can share of my own. But sometimes, I say stupid things like laughing at some shop who thinks they know more about gaskets and surface finish than the manufacturer does. It was an unnecessary stupid comment and I regret saying it.

I know I'll probably pull dumb stunts like that again in my efforts to contribute. It goes with getting old, and underthinking things. But that doesn't make me any less sorry for doing it and I do promise to try harder in future not to.

Being humble is an even more difficult task. I do love a good friendly debate. Suffice to say that I am old enough and know enough to know that I know virtually nothing. I'll have to try even harder to emphasize the nothing part.

I didn't mean for my comments to be personally offensive or hurtful to anyone and I apologize to you @Susquatch for coming across as offensive and snide.

 

[Susquatch]

I didn't mean for my comments to be personally offensive or hurtful to anyone and I apologize to you @Susquatch for coming across as offensive and snide.

I'm not sure how to read that. You certainly didn't come across as offensive or snide. Just painfully accurate.

If you mean that I was offensive or snide, then my apology was not nearly enough.

Either way I will try harder to be as helpful as possible without offending anyone.

 

[Darren]

Ford 2 piece sparkplugs.....

 

[Dabbler]

I think neither of you were pointedly insulting each other. I think you both were making good points, and that the bilateral apologies were not all that necessary, but sweet - in that Canadian way of apologizing when someone else bumps into you.

I think we all here want to do our best to help, and share what we know.

You both do that very well.

 

[DPittman]

I'm not sure how to read that. You certainly didn't come across as offensive or snide. Just painfully accurate.

If you mean that I was offensive or snide, then my apology was not nearly enough.

Either way I will try harder to be as helpful as possible without offending anyone.

Relax all is good. I certainly did not find your comments offensive or snide. I also believe that people in general get offended too easy these days even when the offending intent is actually to be helpful.
Carry on and let's get back on topic .