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Test bar ...again

I do think about that from time to time. But I have a Bison 5C D1-5 collet chuck that is awesome. It's my goto chuck for most of my work. I can't really see much value in adding a taper mounted collet holder.

There are advantages like less over hang and one less layer for accumulated error but I wouldn't worry about it you've got a good setup....., the advantages over a good 5C chuck are small. For interest, here's the Habegger with a hardinge precision collet....not a tenths run out.
test of the pin in the collet is at about 3:45 (check out the spindle run out at 1:08...thats with a tenths indicator)

.. Maybe to hold through stock bigger than 1-1/8! LOL!

Snap up a 2J when you can. I've got them on the DSG and the extra bit makes a difference - goes to 1 3/8"
 
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Snap up a 2J when you can. I've got them on the DSG and the extra bit makes a difference - goes to 1 3/8"

I really only meant I'd consider a different style of collet since my 5C only goes to 1-1/8. My 3 and 4 jaw and spindle all go to 1-5/8.

I don't have a 2 jaw and never really wanted one. I have sometimes removed 2 of the Jaws on my 4 jaw though.
 
While the video production imo was quite well done, my reaction to the mechanics is it's a study in how not do things. Some of the infractions didn't seem to matter (sort of like the broken clock that is right twice a day), but still you can't rely on the results if the process is flawed. What I saw/thought......
Agree 100% with your sentiments & points 1-9. Actually I blew right past his interest in validating HS orientation and/or spindle socket geometry as a precursor to between-center turning. Between centers turning inherently diminishes or disguises lathe geometry conditions that chucks & fixtures can exaggerate or introduce more variables. Between centers allows less complicated tweaks to get a pretty parallel bar overcoming some lathe issues. But of course this disregards the obvious - one does not always have the luxury of turning between centers for one reason or another & explains why chucks & fixtures exist. If you have 2 choices, take the better one etc.

What caught my eye, and maybe this was more personal, was seemingly random runout values by re-inserting & re-clocking his test bar, increasing pressure, doing the bearing jerk.. So we have minimum of 2 problems (probably more as we fully beat to death in another post). Is it perfect spindle + crappy test bar, the opposite, or something in between? Its easy to bash an Indian test bar, but is an Asian MT socket far behind? Yes he should have used a straight plunger on the in-situ lathe tests vs ball end & that probably would reduce some variations. And good catch on validating Vee blocks. (I think everyone agrees expecting squareness of a granite plate is rather silly). But looking past all that, once the bar was somewhat tested on the surface plate, it wasn't horrible as I would have bet a coffee on. If we assume its pretty correct, it puts the focus back to the lathe.

Anyways, simple story, I didn't have anything to independently measure my bar at the time, so it was more of a reminder that I now have a surface plate & rudimentary indicating gear, so I will dig into that issue a bit more out of morbid curiosity.
 
What, you have never turned between centers?

Of course I have! Just not using the taper. I don't even own an mt4 center. Or is it MT5? I think 5. Shows how much I use it! I always put a shop made center in the 3 jaw and true it up. It's way easier to put a dog in a chuck than driving it from my spindle nose. In fact, I'm not even sure I'd know how to drive a dog with my spindle nose. I'm not even remotely inclined to stick anything into the cam holes.....:oops:
 
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I don't have a 2 jaw and never really wanted one. I have sometimes removed 2 of the Jaws on my 4 jaw though.
you must think I'm talking gibberish lol, not 2 jaw, 2J.....its a collet size, very much like a 5c but is a bit larger. They are quite popular (not to the same extent as 5c) and you can get chucks and collets on fleabay. I bought a set some years ago for a guy on Practical MAchinist

 
you must think I'm talking gibberish lol, not 2 jaw, 2J.....its a collet size, very much like a 5c but is a bit larger. They are quite popular (not to the same extent as 5c) and you can get chucks and collets on fleabay. I bought a set some years ago for a guy on Practical MAchinist

Actually, I really thought you meant 2 jaw. I've seen them but like I said, removing 2 jaws on my 4 has handled that need the few times it arose.

You speak jibberish? Nah....

Yes, I've seen chucks like that. In fact, I had an opportunity to buy one just recently with collets. But I don't know if it was 2J. Pretty sure I can find the seller again, and I'd bet big bucks he never sold it. It would be nice to be able to use collets up to 1-5/8.
 
For interest, here's the Habegger with a hardinge precision collet...
That is pretty enviable runout.
What is the stated TIR of your Hardinge collets? Is there a 'precision' grade vs a 'regular' grade?
Did you document your Habegger rebuild somewhere?
 
you must think I'm talking gibberish lol,

Never....

Here is a Bison 2Jaw.

7-830-0600.webp
 
Of course I have! Just not using the taper. I don't even own an mt4 center. Or is it MT5? I think 5. Shows how much I use it! I always put a shop made center in the 3 jaw and true it up. It's way easier to put a dog in a chuck than driving it from my spindle nose. In fact, I'm not even sure I'd know how to drive a dog with my spindle nose. I'm not even remotely inclined to stick anything into the cam holes.....:oops:
This is what I do: basically a muffler clamp with one long bolt, clamped onto the mt5 center.
 

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Never....

Here is a Bison 2Jaw.

lol, I know there is such a thing, but it wouldn't have made much sense to have suggested in the context, ergo I must of sounded gibberishish....er....jibberishish

That is pretty enviable runout.
What is the stated TIR of your Hardinge collets? Is there a 'precision' grade vs a 'regular' grade?
Did you document your Habegger rebuild somewhere?

Thanks, yeah its something. Was pretty happy when I saw, especially when it came on the heels of thinking it was pooched.

i haven't done much to the Habegger, redoing the slide rest is on the list. Will grind it instead of scraping because I think its just small enough to fit on the grinder. When I got it, someone had put the spindle together incorrectly. Had the devil of a time figuring out what was wrong, figured it was bearings. Eventually I realized the bellville washers were oriented incorrectly and that corrected, I get what you see and it runs beautifully.

There is a precision class of Hardinge collets, couldn't tell you what the tolerance is, but figure with about no TIR these were of that class.
 
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For interest, here's the Habegger with a hardinge precision collet....not a tenths run out.
Interesting, what type of bearings?

My understanding is that roller bearings, even ABEC 7/P4 grade precision ones usual have a tenth or so of runout, no?
 
This is what I do: basically a muffler clamp with one long bolt, clamped onto the mt5 center.
I'm glad you showed that picture. My lathe came with an MT3/MT5 adapter sleeve & MT3 center. I figured there must be a reason vs just including MT5 center. Maybe insurance for removal or stick-out or increased diameter vs hole in faceplate? I should investigate, makes more sense to remove the middle man (adapter). I never thought about driving it like that, although I'm not sure that particular clamp would withstand heavy cutting loads. Have you tried it on a bar of steel for example? I keep looking for a D1-4 drive plate but they are less common, might be just as easy to make it from a cheapo chuck adapter plate.
 
Interesting, what type of bearings?

My understanding is that roller bearings, even ABEC 7/P4 grade precision ones usual have a tenth or so of runout, no?


Its a roller bearing. Agree about the tolerances, although they are the worst its suppose to be.... i.e. they can be better. The times i've worked with P4's, iirc, paying attention to lining up the marks, I've ended up with about a 1/2 a tenth.

A very skilled old boy I know used to work at Spar aerospace. They would make their own bearings up by sorting through bins of balls, off the shelf weren't good enough. He has the 1/1,000,000" comparator they used to sort the balls. I bought the 1/100,000" comparator from him.... have never used it, but it was too unique to walk by lol.) Point being, I don't know how the Swiss did these lathes, but there are ways to do bearings that might be better than off the shelf (even that really expensive P2 and P4 shelf. )

How do you get better than P2's on the races and bore? I'd guess spindles and machines with plane bearings. I have no motivation or reason to do so, but theoretically, you could make a plane bearing machine with only a small fraction of tenth runout to do the grinding and boring. DSG did that on some of their highest ends lathes for example (T17). Such a plain bearing can give you spindle that wouldn't flicker a tenths indicator needle, maybe as good as a 1/100,000 TIR? Just guessing

As evidence, here's an example I did in the home shop on the little schaublin. I ground the spindle (double taper) and then scraped the bronze bearing, and finally removed the miscropic burrs with a very small amount garnet fine abrasive (the stuff that breaks down). Run out is a small fraction of a tenth. No doubt Spar or Habegger or Schaublin could have done that or better.

So....armed with such a comparator, if you were suitably motivated to make the machines and spindles to do the boring and grinding (i'm certainly not, this is just chewing the fat), it would seem doable to make bearings better than P4 or P2.

Another example is Lodge & Shipley, arguably the top of the line cylindrical grinder. I've got the baby one and its all plane bearings, done that way to achieve the highest accuracy so the story goes.

See at about 16:10 here, spindle grind and bearing by yours truly. Barely any needle movement, home shop made spindle.


A long account of the headstock reconditioning


The finished lathe

MWZ_5029-finished-2-1500x879-1.jpg
 
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Fascinating!

I was looking into a bit in regards to my hendey spindle. It’s around 1-2 tenths runout on both ID and OD tapers. P4 spec is 4 microns runout max in the size of bearings it takes which is 1.5 tenths. The runout I measured had the hallmark sign of coming from the roller bearings (non-repeating per rotation) so my guess is that a decent amount of the 1-2 tenths I measure is coming from the bearing itself. Axial runout is less than a tenth on the chuck mounting face.

I won’t mess with it unless I have to. I am keeping my eye on eBay for surplus precision bearings though to have just in case. The front pair are a common enough size.
 
I'm glad you showed that picture. My lathe came with an MT3/MT5 adapter sleeve & MT3 center. I figured there must be a reason vs just including MT5 center. Maybe insurance for removal or stick-out or increased diameter vs hole in faceplate? I should investigate, makes more sense to remove the middle man (adapter). I never thought about driving it like that, although I'm not sure that particular clamp would withstand heavy cutting loads. Have you tried it on a bar of steel for example? I keep looking for a D1-4 drive plate but they are less common, might be just as easy to make it from a cheapo chuck adapter plate.
Hi Peter, I only use this set up for light cuts. If I plan on taking heavier cuts, I put a 3-jaw on, and the dog leg goes against the side of one of the jaws Usually the MT5 center sticks out enough that it works fine. Of course, move the jaws in and strap the leg down.

I use to use a back plate, but then repurposed it for my collet chuck.

I'd really like to make a drive plate for it one day.....!
 
Fascinating!

I was looking into a bit in regards to my hendey spindle. It’s around 1-2 tenths runout on both ID and OD tapers. P4 spec is 4 microns runout max in the size of bearings it takes which is 1.5 tenths. The runout I measured had the hallmark sign of coming from the roller bearings (non-repeating per rotation) so my guess is that a decent amount of the 1-2 tenths I measure is coming from the bearing itself. Axial runout is less than a tenth on the chuck mounting face.

I won’t mess with it unless I have to. I am keeping my eye on eBay for surplus precision bearings though to have just in case. The front pair are a common enough size.

agreed, there is nothing wrong that spindle....was more just thinking of how it might have been achieved on the Habegger.
 
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