Steady rest

[trevj]

Well, you got most of it almost correct. One of the "current" websites does offer the correct history and it does show signs of both complications and perhaps desperation to stay in business through the many years. Yes, SM catered to North American, but Southbend was the primary machine for the U.S. if they insisted on "home-grown".

However, the full compliment of both manual and CNC Standard Moderns seem to fully alive and well ....not "just a name". I would really like to know WHERE these machines are now manufactured.

This "Racer Machinery International Inc" state they are the actual manufacturer. The company name "Rotem" also comes into the picture which is only a distributor. The address noted as a manufacturing location is this 1030 Fountain St., in Cambridge, Ontario. Just looking at this building, no lathes could possibly built here. Interestingly, the Toyota plant is directly across the street. A good location for a sales office, ...surrounded by industry.

Almost correct, is about as close as anyone outside the companies involved is going to get. Most of what I have picked up has been in bits and pieces, predominantly over on Practicalmachinist, and from my dealings between actively chasing down various lathes and lathe parts over the years.

I'll kinda take the online version with some of the same salt that I use when I have to swallow Grizzly Tools 'History' of South Bend, being represented as unbroken back a century and more. Well, maybe less salt...

South Bend was already playing with offshoring production in the early eighties, when I first started paying attention to them, they finally succumbed to their lack of innovation and went under, were essentially bailed out by a worker's buyout, and trundled along for a few more years before they crashed for good. Once the Owner of Grizzly, bought the 'rights' to the name, he started plastering it on import machines, usually in huge size stickers, so those were no longer "home-grown'. By that time, IIRC, Hardinge was floundering some, Monarch was pretty close to non-existent, though still rebuilding old cores to new or better spec, as I understand, and there were very few non-import sources for essentially, small, manual lathes, which is the niche the Standard Modern is working to fill for those contracts they can qualify for.

Shame they lost enough traction that they could not survive in Canada, though I think that given the industrial Climate in Ontario over the years, them tanking one way or another, as a low volume producer of specialty goods, was pretty much inevitable.
My understanding is that the new produced SM Lathes, are cast overseas, the castings are imported, aged, and machined in the US, to meet the minimum level as required to bid on the Government contracts that are looking for 'local First' content. Several guys over the uears have mentioned the new SM Lathes that were brought in to the various Military shops they worked in.

 

[Rauce]

Well, you got most of it almost correct. One of the "current" websites does offer the correct history and it does show signs of both complications and perhaps desperation to stay in business through the many years. Yes, SM catered to North American, but Southbend was the primary machine for the U.S. if they insisted on "home-grown".

However, the full compliment of both manual and CNC Standard Moderns seem to fully alive and well ....not "just a name". I would really like to know WHERE these machines are now manufactured.

This "Racer Machinery International Inc" state they are the actual manufacturer. The company name "Rotem" also comes into the picture which is only a distributor. The address noted as a manufacturing location is this 1030 Fountain St., in Cambridge, Ontario. Just looking at this building, no lathes could possibly built here. Interestingly, the Toyota plant is directly across the street. A good location for a sales office, ...surrounded by industry.

They fit annd assemble the machines there.

Not sure where the castings come from but they could very well be local, there are still a number of large foundries in southern ontario.

 

[Dabbler]

There is a lot going on here, and there's a couple points I can add from personal experience. The 3 times I've done business with LeBlond/SM are nearly 40 years ago, about 17 years ago - just before LeBlond was sold - and about 6 years ago.

40 years ago, LeBlond and SM had an arrangement where the 13" LeBlond was partially made by SM in Ontario - this is when they had their Toronto plant and their casting facility north of Toronto. They made everything except the headstock and the QCGB. SM was then one of the major importers of LeBlond at the time. I'm sure this was to satisfy some kind of 'USA made" stamp, and then the claim could have been that 75% of the parts were indeed USA made. I was buying parts for a 15" LeBlond at the time (then owned by Bert)

About 17 or 18 years ago I had to replace the half nut for a LeBlond 13, so I called SM first. They told me that they couldn't guarantee the fit of a SM part to the LeBlond apron, so I checked with LeBlond. The price was over 800$US, so I made a new nut for the guy. The SM part wasn't much cheaper.

About 6 years ago there was a similar controversy as this one. There were strong opinions on both sides about Standard Modern. So I called them, and ended up talking to their international sales manager. He told a long story about near bankruptcy, moving to Cambridge, etc. At that time they were indeed still casting in Ontario, or so he claimed. At that time, parts could be ordered from Cambridge, but he said there were long lead times. He also mentioned a second facility, but I cannot remember where it was - my general impression was that it was within an hours drive. Woodstock? Paris? something like that.

Here's my guess (yes I used satview to look at their plant 6 years ago) I think the head office is at the Cambridge location and the assembly/QC is likely done there. I'm sure all the machining, casting and module assembly (such as the QCGB) are farmed out to other facilities/locations/companies.

I'm sure any guess is as good as any other***

 

[All Metal]

I think your information is likely the best anyone could put their money on.

Your story about the nut and the fit, would be testimonial on it's own, that SM had no controls in place. This would not be an "engineering" issue ....this would be a management/ownership issue.

Then your story about "6 years ago" ...which is now "11 years later" (after your first story) ...sounds like nothing more than a further 11 years of slide into oblivion. If this "international sales manager" was prepared to give you a "long story", there could be many reasons for doing so, one being a little "protectionistic" of the once very healthy company name ...but the "long lead times" is a pretty good indicator that no casting is done in Cambridge ...or even in North America ...which of course is a very stretched comment.

I remember the company I worked for (sales), got to take over the SM line in Western Canada. We were very excited about this as the company that had been representing the line, CAE Morse, apparently weren't selling very many machines any more ....which ultimately I found out was a reality. This would have been the tail-end of the '70's. Asian machines were being imported by the boatload by a local company in Vancouver. I would drive past this company periodically and there was always shipping containers visible in their receiving area. You could purchase THREE Taiwanese lathes of equivalent sizing for the price of ONE SM. We didn't sell ANY SM's. I'm not saying the Taiwanese machines were as good ...because they were not ...but they turned and machined, and machinists could make parts to drwgs. And to make this ridiculous situation even "worse" ....we also represented Harrison. To say I hated sales would be an understatement. I got out and got an add'l degree in Quality. That's my story .....and we all have some kind of story.

So, Dabbler, you were doing some machinery maintenance or something?

 

[Mcgyver]

I can give you some insight on this. I took a serious look at buying the business 10 years ago. Never had a deal in place so can't call it due diligence, but I spent a bunch of time there with the then owner, quasi due diligence. It sure would have suited me, but what a terrible business to pursue in this era.

I didn't make an offer as by my analysis (backed by a modicum of corp finance experience) it wasn't worth much as a going concern but had huge amounts of money tied up in equipment. In other words its value if liquidated would be many times more than I'd pay for it as a business so didn't waste my time with an offer. For me, earnings had to support the selling price, not the value of the used equipment. That was a back in heady SRED days (BS corporate welfare at its finest) where gov wasn't asking too many questions.....but that seemed a foolish income stream to pay for (which proved correct)

They were getting the castings from somewhere in the Prairies. Don't know what foundry, however the owner was quite vocal as to how important good quality cast iron was. Everything about the operation was based that sort of view of quality. They were not the heaviest of lathes, but they were well made.

Everything was made in house to get the quality they wanted at a good price. They a planer that would do 20' beds then a gang grinder, which is a massive thing. A large shaft full of wheels, a dressed to the to do all bed surfaces at once. All gears were generated and there was a massive German leadscrew mill - the thread was by a mill cutter. Never seen a machine like it. Every mating part was scraped to fit; beds ground then each component scraped into the bed and to alignment. They only had thirty or so employees at that point, but two of them were full time scrapers.

You'd think everything in business is done for rational profit maximizing reasons, but not always so with a small business. Personalities come into play. Margins were tight and the owner was about the only interface for the company - everyone else was production. He didn't like outfacing activities and was more a technologist. The pesky customers are annoying! The outsourcing of the parts sales seemed to me an exceptionally poor move, but he didn't want staff and didn't want to do it himself. They still supplied all the parts, they just didn't do the selling. Often they'd send the drawings out to a machine shop to get a part made rather than interrupt what production was doing....so you can see the layers of mark up and why a 500 part ends up being 3000.

The owner was an Indian guy who came from Xcello. I told me he faced lots of pretty brutal racism in earlier years but stuck it out and eventually bought SM. Maybe that's why he just wanted to put his head down and make stuff vs sales and marketing. (but alas, he'd forgotten business starts with a customer!) Reason for selling? Age plus both kids lived in the States so he wanted to move there.

Gene Haas has so much money he gives it away to a F1 team.....but there is no money (imo) in manual machine tools in NA. While SM had some CNC, too little too late it and it was really only the US Navy keeping them afloat (pun intended lol) at the time.

Back to the OP's problem? Get a big chunk of cast iron from Terra Nova and starting whittling!

 

[trevj]

My general sense for what is actually happening, is that after the Name and Rights changed hands a couple times, and likely, not together, or to the same outfit, the outfit now calling itself LeBlond (who may or may not actually have anything besides the name, of the original Machine Tool Co., either purchased or Licensed the rights to make the parts, if the customer was willing to pay.

Some interesting perspective here, from a Machine Tool Repair guy in the commentary of this thread, about Racer. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ard-modern-metric-to-imp.396080/#post-3833700

 

[Dabbler]

sounds like nothing more than a further 11 years of slide into oblivion.

You have whatever was said filtered trhough my brain (??) and from a long ago memory. See below as well...

So, Dabbler, you were doing some machinery maintenance or something?

I've been refirbishing machines for a long time. It started as a budget thing, but now I do it when it pleases me.

Name and Rights changed hands a couple times, and likely, not together, or to the same outfit

In some ways all this discussion is moot - if not irrelevant. The guys that have the LeBlond parts in the USA, have a warehouse of new-old-stock LeBlond and SM parts. But when something is ordered from an empty bin, you are paying for them to make more than one, and they still sell to you at a profit. The way of business, and I don't begrudge them. I have cheaper ways to get the same result in some cases. If I didn't they'd be a godsend if I were in a bind.

 

[All Metal]

Interesting information from Mcgyver.

Can you put a little context to your info, such as the years involved throughout? You did state 10 years ago ...so as recently as 2013? Where exactly was this plant that you refer to with all the manufacturing equipment?

I'm very surprised about your "scrapers" info. These beds have always been hardened and ground and headstock sat/nested on the back vee as did the tailstock. The cross-slide was already left rough to allow lubrication. Did you actually see these scrapers working? If so do you remember what parts they were scraping?

One of the guys I knew was Andy Maharaj. His position at the time was more technical in nature ...when the name of the company was Baxter Technologies. There was another chap, "Bob", but I don't recall his name.

He was younger back then and I could see him still being around for quite some time after I got out of the business. I don't recall any previous mention of a relationship with Excello. Do your remember the "owner's" name?

An on-the-side, the milling machine line we represented was Lagun from Spain. It was a directly competing machine with the entire Bridgeport Turret line ...and also had the full range of Vertical and Horizonal mills as well as bed mills and gantry mills .....and yet, just as I was getting myself ready to leave the industry ....we took on the Excello turret mills line ....which were really a far better design than both Bridgeport AND Lagun. A very solid turret head-tilting design. Far more rigid and compact.

Dabbler, I wouldn't summarize ALL of this discussion as being "moot". For anyone coming across an 11" or 13" SM for sale, and thinking a great machine for their basement or garage ....it sounds to me like a make to avoid, considering it appears the 11" was dropped. I can still get Harrison parts no problem. Expensive? Yes ...but available and will more than likely fit ...that's what s/n's are for.

Also, very interesting conversation particularly for "CANADIANS". Out of curiousity, where are you located?

I really do struggle with the current SM website ....particularly from Mcgyver's information.

I also don't see Racer, 1030 Fountain Street North, Cambridge, Ontario, N3H 4R7, the facility building as being "the place of manufacture". Perhaps somewhere in the U.S. ?

And then the "spare parts"....

The "button" shown, suggesting to click on for more information ...is non-functional.
Not much to be confident about this company at all.

Once again, as others have stated, if any part is in fact made in a country, the marketers can make the claim "Made In .....".

Weird. It appears Mcgyver chose well.

 

[trevj]

In some ways all this discussion is moot - if not irrelevant. The guys that have the LeBlond parts in the USA, have a warehouse of new-old-stock LeBlond and SM parts. But when something is ordered from an empty bin, you are paying for them to make more than one, and they still sell to you at a profit. The way of business, and I don't begrudge them. I have cheaper ways to get the same result in some cases. If I didn't they'd be a godsend if I were in a bind.

I don't think it IS irrelevant. Companies behaving in a predatory manner, charging usurious rates for old stock parts, and charging worse rates for new made, is well worth discussing, as in general, esp here on a Hobby related site, it should be clearly understood by all, that while yes, parts are available, no, you won't be able to spend that amount of money for them! Even Government Org.'s end up looking at cost/value relationships (often scrapping stuff out or disposing of it rather that repairing or replacing, much to our benefit!).

In my opinion, there are darn few industries that could pull off a predatory as this practice on their Customers, and remain in any form of business. But then, is seems they are barely, if even, still actually IN business, so, perhaps it is reaching balance anyways.

As for being in a bind, how much of a bind do you have to be, to spend Thousands on parts for a machine worth Hundreds, when it is working? Seems to me that anyone that could be in enough of a bind to buy S-M's parts, could do as well to hit up Facebook or wherever, and buy a whole replacement machine for less, or should have been wiser in choosing what machines they saw fit to buy!

 

[Mcgyver]

Yes saw I saw it first hand. Afaik this SOP for better made lathes, you don't see it of course because the scraped part is mating on the ground part. I was in the plant day after day going through the operation with the owner. Beds are ground as I said (gang grinder) but parts are scraping into the bed (HS, TS and saddle). Its extremely difficult, about impossible, to grind a part to mate the ground bed to the level of precision that scraping affords. This is due to the geometry, getting six surfaces, two horizontal and four angled to mate to a 10th,....the challenges that presents is rather large so they scrape.

Would have been about 2011 I'd say, maybe late 2010. The plant was in Mississauga. The current owners came along after I was onto other things so I know nothing about them, how they operate or what the strategy is other than what some of the guys on PM have said.

 

[Mcgyver]

In my opinion, there are darn few industries that could pull off a predatory as this practice on their Customers, and remain in any form of business.

I wish it were so.....priced out a tail light, mirror or some headlights lately?

Its brutal, and thats to consumers who you'd think would revolt. They imo have a low threshold of pain vs b2b; par for the course for a business to be told the part is 3k.

 

[trevj]

I wish it were so.....priced out a tail light, mirror or some headlights lately?

Its brutal, and thats to consumers who you'd think would revolt. They imo have a low threshold of pain vs b2b; par for the course for a business to be told the part is 3k.

Yep. Went straight to the AFTERMARKET! Or the U-pick Wrecker.

Because they are being paid for out of MY pocket, not the (supposedly) Insurance Company's!

I shop vehicles the same way I shop machine tools. I take it on faith that he maker is going to be of no use to me at all, shop old, used, in as good shape as I can, and common enough, to not have to be restricted to only one possible source!

 

[Dabbler]

I take it on faith that he maker is going to be of no use to me at all, shop old, used, in as good shape as I can,

It is because of this the discussion is moot. If you can get a part used or make it, you will. but if you *really* need a crucial part, you can still get it - for a price. Frankly, it is a very good thing that someone is still making all the parts for almost every LeBlond and Standard Modern lathe. Even if they are super expensive. If you already own a particular lathe and something breaks and you really, really need it, you can still get it. *That* is my point here.

I don't have any emotion in this game. I've refurbished dozens of old machine tools, and having a supplier in my back pocket really is a godsend. I've stopped my rebuild and resell thing about 10 years ago, partly because of retirement, and partly because I lost interest, so I only do it when I find something *really neat*.

Some guys may get indignant towards these kinds of prices. But there are always alternatives. The LeBlond I have was missing 3 change gears. The dealer lost them, from the time it went on to the floor, to the time it was delivered. They were pricey, but not terrible from LeBlond, But we had a good gear hobber in Calgary then, and the replacements were about 60 to 80 bucks each. Not worth the time to make them myself (or in this case, for Bert to make them).

Out of curiousity, where are you located?

Been in Calgary since the late 70s.

@All Metal where are you?

 

[Mcgyver]

Yep. Went straight to the AFTERMARKET! Or the U-pick Wrecker.

Because they are being paid for out of MY pocket, not the (supposedly) Insurance Company's!

agreed, I use aftermarket as well....still doesn't change the fact that there are lots industry including most of auto that seem to still be in business despite bending over the consumer, to put it crudely.

Auto is so bad, one of the consumer groups might do well to start an index. Pick a basket of common mechanical repairs and body repairs to let you compare costs between makes and models. Sort of a total cost of ownership . The idea is expose their practices (like selling a light, a $5 hunk of plastic, for $1000). If you make it part of what the consumer considers when shopping, it would push them toward more intelligent designs that are less costly to repair and reasonably priced parts. There currently seems no motivation to do so.

 

[All Metal]

To Dabbler ...I'm in Vancouver.
When in sales, we had offices across Canada. The primary equipment was forestry (tree-processing), wood working, and then machine tools. Our office in Edmonton sold most of the metal-working equipment ...for the oil-patch. The machinery had to be heavy with lots of HP. They liked VDF (Boehringer). A simple standard sized 36 x 120 was $80,000 ....back in 1980 .....and they would buy more than one. And when they wanted/needed big ...Wohlenberg. I think it didn't hurt that most of the trades people were European.

In Vancouver ....the shops bought San Yuen and Lantaine.

 

[Susquatch]

To Dabbler ...I'm in Vancouver.

If you put an @ in front of the first few letters of his user name, like this: @Da , then two things will happen, a list of user names starting with those letters will pop up so you can pick one, and more importantly, @Dabbler will get a system notification that he was mentioned in a post along with a link to get there and see it. If you don't do that, he might not ever see it. No worries this time though. I have mentioned him so he will see it!

 

[Tom O]

The Calgary Herald had a gear hobber in their machine shop until somewhere around 2008.

 

[Dabbler]

They liked VDF (Boehringer).

I recently used another member's VDF... It is a monster of a lathe. My guess is that it is a 22" swing. Snce it is a turret lathe it can hold stock perhaps 30" between centres. Doesn't stop it from being about 9000 lbs and about 9 feet long. Very nice user experience!