Probably pushing the limits

[Susquatch]

I wonder if all my colleagues in the lub lab at my old employer are retired...... I'll make a few calls and see what I find.....

Temperature has a huge impact on corrosion of all types. I think @Brent H might be onto something.

How many of you know that putting a car in the garage during the winter accelerates salt corrosion? Yup, the warmer temps in the garage do more harm than good. Unless you live where they don't use salt, don't keep your vehicle in the garage in the winter.

 

[Brent H]

For what it is worth, we had 2 purifiers running for 25 years putting a lot of miles on them with bronze/steel worm action and they were fine - Oil was EP 100 I think - and the inside had a bronze bushing flying around at 5000 rpm submerged in fuel oil/water mix crap and it lasted....

Our huge gearboxes have bronze bushings on the main bull gears and they are submerged in EP 100 - change out is about 50000 hours - if they are worn a bit

 

[kevin.decelles]

My 7x12 needed a gear, so I ordered one from Grizzly (identical parts to the brand I have). The gear was steel, not brass/bronze (the original was yellow metal of some kind). I believe I'm running standard gear oil in there now. I looked around at the usual 'non-oil-specialty' stores and nothing was available from what I could find for a non-additive oil. Where in Calgary would someone go to peruse specialty oils?

 

[DPittman]

My 7x12 needed a gear, so I ordered one from Grizzly (identical parts to the brand I have). The gear was steel, not brass/bronze (the original was yellow metal of some kind). I believe I'm running standard gear oil in there now. I looked around at the usual 'non-oil-specialty' stores and nothing was available from what I could find for a non-additive oil. Where in Calgary would someone go to peruse specialty oils?

I would guess the auto part stores like Napa, Auto Zone, even Crappy Tire might have a reasonable selection.

Edit. Or is those the places you meant by "non-oil-specialty" stores?

 

[DPittman]

Interesting that the replacement gear was not brass/bronze also. I think they make the worm wheel brass/bronze so that it wears instead of the worm gear which would be harder and more expensive to make.

 

[kevin.decelles]

If u look up the part Number P0561201-14V2 on grizzly the description is worm gear steel V2. I didn’t see an option for a brass one. Given the state of the gear I took out, it seemed to come apart in chunks, with each chunk grinding up more chunks.

 

[CalgaryPT]

For the heck of it I did check my King 7x12 Swivel today. Steel gear as suspected. Also pretty impressed by the lack of particulate in the oil after dipping a magnetic pickup into it. After 6 years I would have expected more gunk, but it looked pretty good. Where I am going with this is in the absence of finding a replacement bronze/brass gear it would appear steel could be swapped out. I don't think this is an example of a sacrificial gear such as you see in some machines on purpose. In the event of a stall (assuming you follow the recommended tension for the blade) it should slip before you break a gear I'm guessing.

 

[DPittman]

Well if you don't have any fillings I the oil by now that must mean you have well meshing gears and have little to worry about. I wonder why they use bronze/brass, that would be more expensive then steel, no?

I see bronze gear wheels are available on Amazon for both popular saw sizes.

Bronze Gear for 4 X 6 Metal Cutting Band Saw https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000HHCRMU/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_QPA83E3SQVEWQ79PHYMR

BRONZE GEAR FOR 7 X 12 METAL CUTTING BAND SAWS https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B004EUUOJO/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_VTV1X5SC96JR0WMB2C7J

 

[DPittman]

For the heck of it I did check my King 7x12 Swivel today. Steel gear as suspected. Also pretty impressed by the lack of particulate in the oil after dipping a magnetic pickup into it. After 6 years I would have expected more gunk, but it looked pretty good. Where I am going with this is in the absence of finding a replacement bronze/brass gear it would appear steel could be swapped out. I don't think this is an example of a sacrificial gear such as you see in some machines on purpose. In the event of a stall (assuming you follow the recommended tension for the blade) it should slip before you break a gear I'm guessing.

View attachment 18192

Your magnetic trick would work well with those gears.

 

[YYCHM]

$62 with $20 shipping

 

[CalgaryPT]

Well if you don't have any fillings I the oil by now that must mean you have well meshing gears and have little to worry about. I wonder why they use bronze/brass, that would be more expensive then steel, no?

I see bronze gear wheels are available on Amazon for both popular saw sizes.

Bronze Gear for 4 X 6 Metal Cutting Band Saw https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000HHCRMU/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_QPA83E3SQVEWQ79PHYMR

BRONZE GEAR FOR 7 X 12 METAL CUTTING BAND SAWS https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B004EUUOJO/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_VTV1X5SC96JR0WMB2C7J

Nice find. I would have never thought about Amazon. Is there anything you can't buy on it?

 

[CalgaryPT]

$62 with $20 shipping

There's probably a million of them off the coast of Vancouver Island as we speak.

 

[DPittman]

Nice find. I would have never thought about Amazon. Is there anything you can't buy on it?

Love. Don't ask me why I would know that.

 

[YYCHM]

So can I put this in my 4X6 gear box and call it good?

It has a brass/bronze gear.

 

[DPittman]

So can I put this in my 4X6 gear box and call it good?

View attachment 18193

It has a brass/bronze gear.

That's EXACTLY what I put in mine. Oops sorry, I'm not sure mine says limited slip on it

 

[Tom Kitta]

I happen to have replacement gear case for the saw in question - if anyone needs a replacement.

Most important is square cut. It is much easier with AL then steel to get a square - especially hard steel. My big saw does strange things a lot - usually I need to up the blade stiffness. It also has tendency to loose square. But I can cut huge stuff.

 

[Dabbler]

afaik alot or most synthetic oils are also going to have EP additives

So can I put this in my 4X6 gear box and call it good?

@YYCHM All you have to do is check that the EP isn't sulfur based. It is usually declared on the label. What most guys get wrong is that there are sulfated and non-sulfated EP additives. If you have any yellow metal at all in the box it has to be non-sulfated. I know that i was in the middle of the debate before but I was trying to say this is the ONLY problem with EP.

I use ISO 68 hydraulic oil in most of my gear boxes - it is cheap, non-sulfated, and works very well every where. The only gear box where I don't is in the saddle of my LeBlond: It has a pump to oil the ways, so it HAS to use way oil. I stopped using ISO 32 a while ago but that's a different debate.

 

[Susquatch]

So can I put this in my 4X6 gear box and call it good?

I don't think so. The container has changed at Canadian Tire, but the new one says it has an Phosphorous Sulphur Additive in it. It has the same part number as yours.

On the wider subject of sulphur and yellow metals, last night I located and reached out to a colleague who is one of North America's leading experts on fuels and lubes. Let's see what he has to say.

 

[ShawnR]

So can I put this in my 4X6 gear box and call it good?



It has a brass/bronze gear.

Reading the specs on this, it says it meets API GL-5 standards.

https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/motomaster-80w90-extreme-pressure-gear-oil-5-l-0280249p.html#product-specifications

A google search for that lead me to this site

The difference between GL-4 and GL-5

When you are choosing a transmission or gear oil you might be wondering what GL-4 and GL-5 mean and what the differences are between these two…

www.rymax-lubricants.com

The highlight being ...

The main difference between GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils is the amount of EP additives. Sulphur/Phosphorus containing products are used as EP-additive. This additive has the purpose to prevent the occurrence of micro-welds on the gear flanks at the local high temperatures which prevail in EP circumstances (temperatures well in excess of 800℃!) GL-5 has roughly twice the amount of EP additives compared to GL-4, which is why it is often used in high-pressure circumstances such as in a front axle and rear axle differential.

Sulphur/Phosphorus additives however have an unfavourable property: they can react aggressively towards bronze and copper. This can be disastrous for the synchromesh rings of a gearbox. Therefore it is not recommended to use GL-5 in a gearbox unless the manufacturer allows this.

To conclude:

• GL-4 is suitable for hypoid gear service when they are under severe service but are without shock loading.
• GL-5 is suitable for hypoid gear service under severe service and shock loads and not for use in a gearbox.

So, to answer your question @YYCHM I think no....but I am sure someone with more knowledge will be along shortly to support or disagree


Again, another interesting topic ...

That is the only spec I looked up. But good to know and I did not, till now. How did we ever learn anything before forums and youtube? Oh yea, buy a book...but before Amazon, where we would we find one....?

Cheers,

 

[Susquatch]

How did we ever learn anything before forums and youtube? Oh yea, buy a book...but before Amazon, where we would we find one....?

Like many other members here, I predate the internet's prodigious data availability.

Yet, my thirst for knowledge was no less prodigious then than now.

My sources of information have evolved but my preferred source way back then was the local university library. I still like using that but books and academic papers can now be accessed on line now.

The obvious other approach is to consult with a subject matter expert. I have reached out for that already.

In the meantime, I have been led to believe that straight GL5 or any combination thereof is bad. Eg GL4/GL5 is not ok, but straight GL4 is ok.

I've also learned that temperature is indeed a huge factor just as @Brent H suggested.