Tool POS Tap Guide

[Susquatch]

Hey, @Susquatch you might have to blunt the tip of your tap follower if you use that carbide cutter to cut your center, otherise the tip will bottom out. (hence the use of center cutters, which you can get in carbide).

Yes, I've been thinking about that.

For how often I would use them, I think the center cutters are too expensive.

I don't want to blunt the follower - although I doubt it would ever need to be sharp....

So I'm thinking I'll prolly just drill out the bottom of the center hole with a 1/8 or 3/32 carbide drill.

 

[thestelster]

Here are my tap drivers. They are worth their weight in gold and I highly recommend them.

So, tell me about them. On the site it doesn't show too much. Do the drivers have the appropriate hole for a slip fit to the designated tap. So for example, a #8 tap has a shank diameter of 0.168", and is there a square recess that the tap engages the square section of the tap?

 

[PeterT]

I've shown my tap holders before for small holes. The set screws contact the tap flats. With the chuck set up for the pilot drill, just insert the tool, often without raising the head. The chuck jaws are just a smidge loose on the tool shank so its being guided vertically but no resistance to rotation with the tommy bar. Or alternatively chuck the shank & power tap to certain safe depth & finish with the tommy bar. I find tap wrenches more of a stack-up PITA & not as axially aligned. Fine pitches require very little down force & the spring is non-linear, so again more of a PITA.

The downside is, tap shanks vary in diameter so I have a few sizes. I was just thinking the other day I could replace this with something like a small ER-11 collet shank. they are cheap on ALI

 

[thestelster]

I've shown my tap holders before for small holes. The set screws contact the tap flats. With the chuck set up for the pilot drill, just insert the tool, often without raising the head. The chuck jaws are just a smidge loose on the tool shank so its being guided vertically but no resistance to rotation with the tommy bar. Or alternatively chuck the shank & power tap to certain safe depth & finish with the tommy bar. I find tap wrenches more of a stack-up PITA & not as axially aligned. Fine pitches require very little down force & the spring is non-linear, so again more of a PITA.

The downside is, tap shanks vary in diameter so I have a few sizes. I was just thinking the other day I could replace this with something like a small ER-11 collet shank. they are cheap on ALI

View attachment 48043

I was thinking this as well. In fact an ER16 would go from #0- 1/2" tap. You can get the short versions (4" overall length), cut a 60° center in the end, and you could manually tap with a spring loaded center or power tap.

 

[PeterT]

Or if you do this a lot, break out the weapon of choice haha

https://www.tapmatic.com/product_line_self_reversing_manually_controlled_tapping_heads.ydev

 

[Susquatch]

So, tell me about them. On the site it doesn't show too much. Do the drivers have the appropriate hole for a slip fit to the designated tap. So for example, a #8 tap has a shank diameter of 0.168", and is there a square recess that the tap engages the square section of the tap?

They are dead simple. They have a shank section that holds the tap centered and an internal square drive that fits all the different tap heads with no slop.

The top has either 1/4 or 3/8 square drives to fit any 1/4 or 3/8 square drive system such as a ratchet wrench or a T-drive or whatever.

As a result they can be used with shallow or deep access by adding extensions.

The grip on the tap is such that they will not fall out even though taps don't have a detent. It takes a bit of a firm pull to yank them out.

Perhaps the best thing is that they are quite rigid to the tap more or less becoming an extension of the tap itself.

I first saw them visiting another machinist and fell in love. In my opinion they are head and shoulders better than a collet because they cannot slip and have a dead simple integral square drive system.

Lets not forget that all of this was about using a tap follower and a tap wrench to turn the tap manually while using a mill/drillpress/lathe strictly for alignment. If you are going to drive the tap under power, then you don't need any of this. And while a tapping head is ideal, I don't have one, nor am I likely to get one. I have tapped under power with my testicals firmly embedded in my diaphragm. But then you also need some kind of weight on the quill lever to feed the tap properly. A drill chuck or a collet would work fine in this scenario.

 

[MrWhoopee]

This is my favorite tap follower. Someday I'll make an even better one but I can't really complain about this one. It has always worked just fine. It does require taps with a 60 degree center or a 60 point at the drive end. You just use a regular tap wrench or an open end wrench on the top of the taps.

Amazon.ca

For taps that don't have a center you can either drill a center yourself, or use a tap driver with a square drive socket cap that has a center.

Here are my tap drivers. They are worth their weight in gold and I highly recommend them. I have not yet encountered a tap between a #4 and 1/2" that one of them doesn't fit. Smaller and bigger prolly need something else anyway.

Lisle LI70500 Tap Socket Set

https://a.co/d/hZRkmNi

Here are some square drivers. They are not the same as mine but can't imagine it would make any difference. They just need to have a 60 degree center drilled into the top of them for the follower to fit into.

3 PC Square Drive Socket Caps, Hex 7/16", 9/16" & 3/4" with 1/4", 3/8" & 1/2" Drives

Amazon.ca

Note that the tap drivers have a fairly tight fit with an internal retainer. The assembly is quite stiff so you don't need to worry about any misalignments stacking up. Basically the tap, tap socket, and driver act as one unit that can be centered and held vertical directly by the tap follower mounted in a drill press or mill or lathe. It works really well.

I've been doing a lot of hand tapping in the mill, mostly #8 & #10 blind holes. In an effort to reduce the amount of knee cranking, along with some others, I bought a set similar to the Lisle set.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09HH6NVMD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I used the #10 today, just chucking the OD and using the chuck driver handle I pictured previously. Better than the 1/4 hex tap drivers, my new favorite, no cranking required!

 

[Susquatch]

I bought a set similar to the Lisle set.

It was a bit of an ordeal to see your drivers. The link is the US Amazon site. No biggie to switch sites. But then amazon would not show me the tap drivers cuz my address was Canada and this particular product was not available to ship to Canada. &#@$!!! I had to create a fake US address to ship to and then it let me look.

They do look similar to the Lisle Drivers. What I cannot see is whether or not they have the retaining function to stop the taps from falling out.

Too bad neither outfit includes wrench flats at the top outside of the driver. That single feature would reduce stack up and parts required.

Also wondering how much slop they have holding the tap?

I used the #10 today, just chucking the OD and using the chuck driver handle I pictured previously. Better than the 1/4 hex tap drivers, my new favorite, no cranking required!

I assume you mean this device you posted earlier.



I general, I like it. But I can't really see exactly how it works. Do you lift it into the chuck teeth? If so, I bet that was a bitch to make! Can you tell us a bit more about this tool?

Generally speaking, I find that turning the spindle is a royal PIA. I DEFINITELY LIKE the T-Bar approach like yours, but my spindle has a lot of mass inertia to overcome that significantly reduces my ability to feel the tap biting. I don't like that. Thankfully, I can throw my mill gears into neutral which helps - but still not enough. My drill press is better in that regard but you still have belts to turn. Lastly, you still have to advance the quill as the tap turns it's way down onto the work.

That's why I favour the spring loaded follower that follows the tap down or up and allows the tap to be turned independent of the spindle while still facilitating perfect vertical alignment for nice clean stress free threading.

Things are drying up a bit out there so I'm expecting to hit the fields again later today, but I would like to add a 60 degree center to one of my square drive adapters and then I'll try it out with a small tap and take a photo of the entire assembly in place.

 

[Susquatch]

But, lacking power knee lift, I'm always looking for ways to reduce the required z clearance.

I think we all would love to have power Z - either knee or head. It just costs too much for my taste. Like you I prefer not to have to move mine.

Shortly after I bought my knee mill, I found this on Amazon. This link is to the US site - just for you Mr Woopee!

Amazon.com

Here is the same product on Amazon Canada

Amazon.ca

With one of those, I can remove the handle and crank my knee up or down using an ordinary battery powered drill or driver in mere seconds.

 

[Susquatch]

Hey, @Susquatch you might have to blunt the tip of your tap follower if you use that carbide cutter to cut your center, otherise the tip will bottom out. (hence the use of center cutters, which you can get in carbide).

Just for Poops N Giggles, I looked to see what Amazon wants for one. Not really as bad as I expected!

Amazon.ca

It's a lot easier than double drilling so I ordered one.

 

[Tecnico]

I think we all would love to have power Z - either knee or head. It just costs too much for my taste. Like you I prefer not to have to move mine.

Shortly after I bought my knee mill, I found this on Amazon. This link is to the US site - just for you Mr Woopee!

Amazon.com

Here is the same product on Amazon Canada

Amazon.ca

With one of those, I can remove the handle and crank my knee up or down using an ordinary. Batter powered drill or driver in mere seconds.

Those are a great economy Z drive. Not hard to make if you have a little time and a dividing head to go with your mill.

D

 

[MrWhoopee]

It was a bit of an ordeal to see your drivers. The link is the US Amazon site. No biggie to switch sites. But then amazon would not show me the tap drivers cuz my address was Canada and this particular product was not available to ship to Canada. &#@$!!! I had to create a fake US address to ship to and then it let me look.

They do look similar to the Lisle Drivers. What I cannot see is whether or not they have the retaining function to stop the taps from falling out.

Too bad neither outfit includes wrench flats at the top outside of the driver. That single feature would reduce stack up and parts required.

Also wondering how much slop they have holding the tap?



I assume you mean this device you posted earlier.

View attachment 48054

I general, I like it. But I can't really see exactly how it works. Do you lift it into the chuck teeth? If so, I bet that was a bitch to make! Can you tell us a bit more about this tool?

Generally speaking, I find that turning the spindle is a royal PIA. I DEFINITELY LIKE the T-Bar approach like yours, but my spindle has a lot of mass inertia to overcome that significantly reduces my ability to feel the tap biting. I don't like that. Thankfully, I can throw my mill gears into neutral which helps - but still not enough. My drill press is better in that regard but you still have belts to turn. Lastly, you still have to advance the quill as the tap turns it's way down onto the work.

T

I had no idea Amazon wouldn't even let you see the page, doesn't seem to be a problem the other way around.
I'll try to remember to screen shot the pages.
A VPN would solve that problem, you can be anywhere you want.

The driver set I got is not rigid like you described, it has a flexible plastic insert that grips the shank of the tap while metal drives the square.

The knurled handle on the chuck driver is threaded and engages one of the chuck key holes by tightening. I also put the mill in neutral, it gives me enough feel to avoid unpleasantries.

 

[Susquatch]

As promised here is the complete setup with a piece of steel washer, hole drilled with a #44 drill (80% thread - intentionally tighter than normal), and tapped 4-40. Piece of cake!


Center drilled 1/4 driver & 3/8 open end wrench.



Tapping the Hole - almost done. The tap socket and driver didn't budge off alignment despite using the lopsided torque of an open ended wrench.



Complete setup. Zoom in to see the Hex Driver under the wrench.



All in all, very happy. My new method for tapping small holes.

I'd still like to make a better follower with more adjustment in the down pressure and a longer throw. Project 42XH.

 

[Susquatch]

I had no idea Amazon wouldn't even let you see the page, doesn't seem to be a problem the other way around.
I'll try to remember to screen shot the pages.
A VPN would solve that problem, you can be anywhere you want.

Yes, but I'm not a fan of VPNs. My provider makes it very difficult for me.

Amazon Canada prolly loves selling to Americans. Amazon US to Canada, not so much....

Screenshots would prolly be appreciated by most of us log chewers.

The driver set I got is not rigid like you described, it has a flexible plastic insert that grips the shank of the tap while metal drives the square.

Too bad. If you want a set of the Lisle's I'm sure I could make it happen.

The knurled handle on the chuck driver is threaded and engages one of the chuck key holes by tightening. I also put the mill in neutral, it gives me enough feel to avoid unpleasantries.

That's beautiful! I like it. Too bad some members have no neutral. My Hartford BP Clone doesn't either, but it's easy to put the shift lever half way between gears to get a sorta neutral that serves the purpose. There are still a few things spinning, but with a driver like yours the extra oomph wouldn't be a big deal.

Not needed for my tapping setup, but useful for lots of other tasks!

Thank you!

 

[Susquatch]

Hey, @Susquatch you might have to blunt the tip of your tap follower if you use that carbide cutter to cut your center, otherise the tip will bottom out. (hence the use of center cutters, which you can get in carbide).

You jinxed me you know!

I was drilling a second socket driver and I broke the tip off of a 60 degree carbide drill bit.

Drills 10x better now but bottom has a flat!

No problem, just drilled that out too.

PS - thanks for posting all that - I'm much happier with my old Craftsman flat topped hss tapset now.

I already ordered a set of carbide center drills like you suggested so this won't be a problem in future. I'll wait till they arrive before drilling the third driver.

Even under a microscope, the very tip of those 60 degree carbide drills is a 60 degree drill. Your instincts were right, it makes them very fragile. (might need pressure and low speed..... NOT!)

Now I need to figure out how to tap small holes without a drill press or a mill for alignment. I know some members like them, but I never liked those tap alignment jigs with all the holes in them. I find it's easier to just hold the drill square and frankly, with only one good eye, I don't do that all that well either.

 

[MrWhoopee]

Since we're on subject, these tap handles get rave reviews. Self-centering jaws, pilot for chucking and extremely low profile.
Not cheap.

Tap Wrench | Northern Machining Inc

northernmachininginc.com

I don't own one yet, but I have the feeling it won't be long.

 

[Susquatch]

Since we're on subject, these tap handles get rave reviews. Self-centering jaws, pilot for chucking and extremely low profile.
Not cheap.

Tap Wrench | Northern Machining Inc

northernmachininginc.com

I don't own one yet, but I have the feeling it won't be long.

I had a very similar self centering tap wrench that came with my old Craftsman tap set. It was cruder than my first motorcycle (which ate hay and oats for fuel), but it did work. It disappeared a half century ago or I'd post a photo.

I could never see the point in a self centering handle though. Northern Machining seems to knock the one sliding jaw type. But my experience is that most of the one jaw type are junk - even the KBC and Bosche are not great. If that's what they were comparing to, I'd agree. But the Starrett ones are simply awesome. I have since purchased each size but the very largest. I skipped that one because of the high cost, but also cuz when they get that big, the handle doesn't really matter much anymore. Farm equipment doesn't give a rats ass what I use to drive big huge taps.

The biggest problem with the other handles is that they lose grip on the tap after a while. The Starrett's don't. Besides all that, the polish and fit & finish of the Starett's is amazing.



Have you tried a Starrett handle?

 

[DavidR8]

I had a very similar self centering tap wrench that came with my old Craftsman tap set. It was cruder than my first motorcycle (which ate hay and oats for fuel), but it did work. It disappeared a half century ago or I'd post a photo.

I could never see the point in a self centering handle though. Northern Machining seems to knock the one sliding jaw type. But my experience is that most of the one jaw type are junk - even the KBC and Bosche are not great. If that's what they were comparing to, I'd agree. But the Starrett ones are simply awesome. I have since purchased each size but the very largest. I skipped that one because of the high cost, but also cuz when they get that big, the handle doesn't really matter much anymore. Farm equipment doesn't give a rats ass what I use to drive big huge taps.

The biggest problem with the other handles is that they lose grip on the tap after a while. The Starrett's don't. Besides all that, the polish and fit & finish of the Starett's is amazing.

View attachment 48132

Have you tried a Starrett handle?

When I got my Starrett handles I was blown away by how nice they were to use.

 

[MrWhoopee]

I had a very similar self centering tap wrench that came with my old Craftsman tap set. It was cruder than my first motorcycle (which ate hay and oats for fuel), but it did work. It disappeared a half century ago or I'd post a photo.

I could never see the point in a self centering handle though. Northern Machining seems to knock the one sliding jaw type.

The reason for the self-centering feature on this handle is that there is a pilot for holding in a chuck. This keeps the tap centered under the pilot.

 

[thestelster]

I had a very similar self centering tap wrench that came with my old Craftsman tap set. It was cruder than my first motorcycle (which ate hay and oats for fuel), but it did work. It disappeared a half century ago or I'd post a photo.

I could never see the point in a self centering handle though. Northern Machining seems to knock the one sliding jaw type. But my experience is that most of the one jaw type are junk - even the KBC and Bosche are not great. If that's what they were comparing to, I'd agree. But the Starrett ones are simply awesome. I have since purchased each size but the very largest. I skipped that one because of the high cost, but also cuz when they get that big, the handle doesn't really matter much anymore. Farm equipment doesn't give a rats ass what I use to drive big huge taps.

The biggest problem with the other handles is that they lose grip on the tap after a while. The Starrett's don't. Besides all that, the polish and fit & finish of the Starett's is amazing.

View attachment 48132

Have you tried a Starrett handle?

Nice! But where's the Starrett #174?