Machine quality question

[slow-poke]

FWIW
Twenty? Years ago I started with a 7" mini lathe, better than nothing. Later picked up a EMCO compact 8, better but too small. A couple years back I upgraded to a CX706 it is heaver and has power cross feed and I find it quite acceptable for my hobby use. Low speed power is marginal but okay. Quality is okay. I have added ELS, QCTP and might swap the motor for a 3-PH and VFD. I doubt I will buy another lathe, it's quite acceptable for my limited use.

I would imagine your existing lathe is similar to the EMCO (size / mass) that I sold and my current lathe is much more capable.

Seems like used (Kijiji) ~10" Busy Bee lathes sell for about the same as you paid for your 8". I don't know how these older BB lathes compare quality wise?

Are some made in Taiwan or are they all made in China perhaps others can chime in?

 

[Mcgyver]

There are high end brand new lathes available - but they are not cheap - and they start at sizes 14x40 and above. Most people do not want to spend more than around 10-12k on a new 14x40 lathe so these 25k+ machines are not exactly popular.

There are? High end manual lathes? Who? There may be some some high end Japanese or European ones still made, and for small stuff (instrument lathes, no leadscrew) there is Schaublin, Derbysire and Levin....but all the manufacturers of high end machines I know have gone away (or at least their manual lathe making has)....Monarch, Hardinge, DSG, Pacemaker, Rivett Cadillac, Hendy, Smart Brown, American, Okuma, Holbrook, Mori.......I guess there is Weiler if you have $150,000 to spend lol.

What other lathes deserving the high end handle are still made? There's some clones, not sure deserve to be on the list though. afaik, the rest are gone.

The good news is as so many know, with the decline in manufacturing and shift to CNC, most of these greats are aviable for a comparative song used. Back when Myford and Emco ruled the day, no one dreamt of being able to have a DSG, Monarch, Schaublin, Holbrook, etc....now I can have all of them lol

 

[Mcgyver]

Enco (or is it EMCO? I keep getting the two names confused) are very well made as well. They come up more often than Hardinge.

Emco was an Austrian manufacture of good quality lathes but almost all at the hobby level - unimat, maximat etc. They had the German quality thing going, nice little machines. Enco was a budget brand of offshore tools from Enco, a US tool catalogue house. Neither are remotely in the same league as a 10ee or HLV which are among the finest tool room lathes ever made. In fairness, the big Maximat was a pretty nice machine, but still not comparable to a HLV or 10ee which are in the tool room class.

 

[slow-poke]

Emco was an Austrian manufacture of good quality lathes but almost all at the hobby level - unimat, maximat etc. They had the German quality thing going, nice little machines. Enco was a budget brand of offshore tools from Enco, a US tool catalogue house. Neither are remotely in the same league as a 10ee or HLV which are among the finest tool room lathes ever made. In fairness, the big Maximat was a pretty nice machine, but still not comparable to a HLV or 10ee which are in the tool room class.

The EMCO compact 8 that I sold had a fair bit of use, that and the fact that it's considerably smaller than my present BB lathe made it less capable regardless of its Austrian heritage.

 

[Dabbler]

I don't know how these older BB lathes compare quality wise?

Are some made in Taiwan or are they all made in China perhaps others can chime in?

The much older BB lathes were all Taiwanese made. Up until 1986, when they started to introduce some Chinese lathes. After the mid 90s, none of the BB lathes are Taiwanese.

 

[slow-poke]

The much older BB lathes were all Taiwanese made. Up until 1986, when they started to introduce some Chinese lathes. After the mid 90s, none of the BB lathes are Taiwanese.

I'm curious how the pre 90's BusyBee Taiwanese lathes compare to the latest Chinese lathes (quality wise), I'm guessing the Taiwanese are a bit better?

Assuming they were better, need to inspect carefully after 30 years of use.

 

[Rauce]

There are? High end manual lathes? Who? There may be some some high end Japanese or European ones still made, and for small stuff (instrument lathes, no leadscrew) there is Schaublin, Derbysire and Levin....but all the manufacturers of high end machines I know have gone away (or at least their manual lathe making has)....Monarch, Hardinge, DSG, Pacemaker, Rivett Cadillac, Hendy, Smart Brown, American, Okuma, Holbrook, Mori.......I guess there is Weiler if you have $150,000 to spend lol.

I did a bit of research into this today since I was curious. It looks like there are a number of European companies still producing manual lathes but with the exception of Weiler they don’t really look “high end” at least the way I would define it. They look like a typical 14-20” swing engine lathe like you’d get from Asia but made in Europe instead. Sort of like the current offerings from standard modern.

In Japan Takisawa still makes manual gear head lathes and they look very nice, maybe worthy of the “high end” designation. Looks like all cast parts including the base. The only short comings I see are not having lead screw reverse (a la Monarch, Hendey, DSG etc.) and an A type spindle nose. It does have automatic stops for feeds though.

 

[Dabbler]

Takisawa lathes are very, very good. quiet and accurate.

 

[PeterT]

Some vintage Monarch footage. The tracer accessory sure looks cool.

 

[DPittman]

Some vintage Monarch footage. The tracer accessory sure looks cool.

Cool stuff. I'm always impressed and amazed how well things were done back then. I think our little hobby style asian lathe factories would look somewhat low tech, mickey mouse compared to even these old time Monarch factories. That's just my guess tho I really wouldn't know.

 

[Brian H]

Are you okay with physically changing gears or would you want a gearbox? Some like changing gears others like a gearbox, it's personal preference.

When I was starting to look for my "forever lathe" I made a features "need" list and a features "want" list then went searching machine specs. Reviews were a big part of my search as well but you need to be careful there because unfortunately you can't always trust the internet (what a shocker). The SM1120 had both lists covered so I waited for one to come to me, took a while but the wait was definitely worth it.

I looked at the machines you mentioned, PM-1130 or Grizzly G4003G, to me these are two different classes of machine and are almost $2k US apart and almost 700lbs difference. Are these the machines you mean to be comparing?

Thanks for your input. This really helps me, I want to try my best to compare apples to apples and get the best machine I can afford.
I would be ok with gear changes (as long as it was easier than my present lathe) but a gear box would definitely be preferred.
I have a very limited knowledge of what is even out there for comparisons, and my internet searching skills are not top notch. Not to overstate the obvious, I am not super familiar with what much of the information I'm comparing is even telling me. So, I was simply comparing lathe "size" (eg. 12 x 36, 11 x 16 etc) and what I could see in the pictures for options and overall dimensions as I'm working with very limited space. I hadn't even considered looking at machine weights. I'm assuming this directly translates to machine rigidity??
The standard Modern never even showed up as an option on google search, so thank you for that suggestion.

 

[Brian H]

This is a bit of a loaded question as far as machine quality is concerned. Almost all machines are build to a price point - you have some exceptions from long time ago - like say 10EE or similar lathes.

Given this price point build there is a strong co-relation of price to what you get for the size.

Sure there are differences - sometimes stuff is re-badged and price goes up - sometimes you get direct from manufacturer and price goes down.

The 8x16 lathes sometimes are of rather poor quality or so I was told - see Vevor lathes - but on the plus side if you make a video of why your lathe is crap you get like 30% off and total price drops to a $1000 or so for a decent size lathe you have to "fix".

Lathes in sizes smaller than around 14x40 (or 13) new in Canada from usual suspects are usually not well made - when I briefly owned 11 x 26 Modern tools lathe I was shocked how poorly it was made compared to my 1960s Colchester Chipmaster. I just got used to top not quality that in 1960s cost arm and a leg - a bit unfair comparison between almost no expenses spared lathe and a hobbyist machine.

When I sold my BB lathe my main concern was luck of power when making a bit larger parts. The 089 lathe had 1hp motor that when oil was cold would throw a break when started at over 720 rpm. At 720rpm with emery cloth and say 2" part in I could stall the lathe with my hand. Lathe was functional but it had "issues".

The 14x40 lathe class is usually better made than smaller lathes, should not have any power issues and has all power feed functions as well as gearbox. I would look into these. If buying used not Chinese lathe you may get exceptionally well made product. Otherwise smaller lathes need to be in the 10EE or similar class - import to deliver all power functions, gearbox as well as power to plow through work + quality of make.

Decision is with lathe user what they want. I tried to make a mini mill into a "mill" - usually instead of trying to modify small tool for big job it is much, much easier - and cheaper - to just go and buy bigger tool.

This post brings up many of the frustrations I have encountered. I was hoping to be able to "transform" my small lathe to do what I wanted, but, have come to realize that I may be asking more than its designed for. So, I concur with your assessment on knowing when its time to just get the right tool for the job.

As many have already stated, its a real luck-of-the-draw situation when you are dealing with import machines. This is where I am struggling with choosing the most likely to succede route.

 

[Brian H]

Quibbling is just an older word for trolling IMHO. Easy to pick out points in an entire post and rip them apart. Be that as it may.

But if you can grab a 10EE, grab it. I wish I could find one or even had the space for one.....I have to make do with my "crappy" little 1957 Atlas 10:

View attachment 36604

Small and kind of limited, but does the jobs I need it to. Not everyone needs a couple thousand pounds of machine to do what they need to do. Sure would be nice to have something like this in the shop though:

View attachment 36605

I could sit there with a coffee and just stare at that all day!

That Monarch is VERY NICE!!! Your Atlas is in very nice shape as well. Did you refurbish it?

 

[Susquatch]

At this point I have narrowed my selection to two options., Precision Matthews PM-1130 or Grizzly G4003G. These are both very close in price point (nothing in stock at this time though)

I went back and had a good read of all your comments and replies on this thread as well as your original question.

In my opinion (which others will no doubt argue with - and rightly so), the G4003G is a better buy. It has slightly more throw and I have come to believe that Grizzly tends to give you a bit more for your money just because of the volume they do and the way they position their products in the market. In fact, you can even get a bit more lathe in the same size if you opt for their G0750G.

The grizzly manuals are very good. In fact, most folks with equivalent lathes download the grizzly manuals because they are so much better written. They also stock a huge variety of parts.

Grizzly support is also good, but so is PM.

 

[Brian H]

FWIW
Twenty? Years ago I started with a 7" mini lathe, better than nothing. Later picked up a EMCO compact 8, better but too small. A couple years back I upgraded to a CX706 it is heaver and has power cross feed and I find it quite acceptable for my hobby use. Low speed power is marginal but okay. Quality is okay. I have added ELS, QCTP and might swap the motor for a 3-PH and VFD. I doubt I will buy another lathe, it's quite acceptable for my limited use.

I would imagine your existing lathe is similar to the EMCO (size / mass) that I sold and my current lathe is much more capable.

Seems like used (Kijiji) ~10" Busy Bee lathes sell for about the same as you paid for your 8". I don't know how these older BB lathes compare quality wise?

Are some made in Taiwan or are they all made in China perhaps others can chime in?

I feel you are correct with the size comparison. I have done some searching (as I mentioned I don't have stellar google-fu) and have been unable to find any listings (other than whats on this forum) for anything in Canada, let alone in the middle of the prairies...

The closest store I could possibly see one in person is a 5 1/2 hour drive away for me. There are a couple "stores" in Saskatoon, but all they can do is show me a picture on a computer screen (that I have already looked at on my computer) from the manufacturers website. And have about the same knowledge base as I do...

 

[Brian H]

I went back and had a good read of all your comments and replies on this thread as well as your original question.

In my opinion (which others will no doubt argue with - and rightly so), the G4003G is a better buy. It has slightly more throw and I have come to believe that Grizzly tends to give you a bit more for your money just because of the volume they do and the way they position their products in the market. In fact, you can even get a bit more lathe in the same size if you opt for their G0750G.

The grizzly manuals are very good. In fact, most folks with equivalent lathes download the grizzly manuals because they are so much better written. They also stock a huge variety of parts.

Grizzly support is also good, but so is PM.

The G0750G was one of the lathes I was very intrigued with. It checks off all the boxes on the "needed" and most of the "wants". One of the reasons I was comparing the two models I chose was they were in stock. In the few enquiries I made no one could even give me a guess on how long it would be till one is available if its not in stock...

 

[YotaBota]

Have you thought about a WTB ad in Used.ca, Kijiji and/or Craigs list? I got lucky with a WTB ad for the SM, it took almost a year but it worked in this machinery wasteland.

I'm assuming this directly translates to machine rigidity??

I believe that's true for all the machinery we play work with. lol

 

[jcdammeyer]

Have you thought about a WTB ad in Used.ca, Kijiji and/or Craigs list? I got lucky with a WTB ad for the SM, it took almost a year but it worked in this machinery wasteland.

I believe that's true for all the machinery we play work with. lol

Yes. Use your words. They are tools, not toys. lol

 

[Brian H]

Have you thought about a WTB ad in Used.ca, Kijiji and/or Craigs list? I got lucky with a WTB ad for the SM, it took almost a year but it worked in this machinery wasteland.

I believe that's true for all the machinery we play work with. lol

I have tried a few times with Kijiji, all I seem to get is ads from the east of MB...and I'm not prepared to drive 15+ hours one way unless I'm 100% sure. Also I have tried that within 1 hr and only arrived to have it sold from underneath me after offering to send a deposit to hold it... in their defense, I have had people say "I'll take it I'm on my way" and never show up.

What happened to the value of "handshake" deals... I guess I'm too old school...LOL

 

[Tom Kitta]

I have tried a few times with Kijiji, all I seem to get is ads from the east of MB...and I'm not prepared to drive 15+ hours one way unless I'm 100% sure. Also I have tried that within 1 hr and only arrived to have it sold from underneath me after offering to send a deposit to hold it... in their defense, I have had people say "I'll take it I'm on my way" and never show up.

What happened to the value of "handshake" deals... I guess I'm too old school...LOL

You are brave to send a deposit - it can be a scam. When I see a deal far away and I did not contact seller within first 5min I know its good as gone.