Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
All models have same issue - mine was from like 7 years ago. I heard of one 3 years ago and now current. Same exact issue.
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Craftex CX709 motor issue?
- Thread starter DHHok
- Start date
All models have same issue - mine was from like 7 years ago. I heard of one 3 years ago and now current. Same exact issue.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
Take the chuck off and run without it and see whatever it makes the difference. Finally do what I told you.
Its not small batch. It was mine and few other people that told me about the same issue. In fact everyone of them has the same issue. Recommended oil for the speed is ISO 32, ignore the manual as you will continue having issues.
In fact you can go to BB store and plug one of the lathes in IN STORE and I bet it will not start with chuck in at top speed.
Note mine was like 7 years ago. With exactly same issue of not starting at high speed.
Besides what is the problem of running it for say 15min at lower speed - even with heavy oil, and then switching to higher speed and noticing it magically works?
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
Besides the motor is not 1.5hp it is 1hp motor - they way they arrived at magical 1.5hp is same way they arrived at 7.5hp peak horse power for compressors. The motor is just 11amps at 110v. Which gives us 11 * 110 / 747 = 1.6 -- so 1.5hp motor 
))
The same lathe but in different color is 089 - see https://www.busybeetools.com/content/product_manuals/CT089.pdf
Looks familiar no? Magically it only has 1hp motor... but same amps
I guess new motor must be way more efficient
If you have a motor in same frame size that is 2hp go for it - probably the best solution.
If you google 13 x 24 lathe you find LOTS of copies of same machine all over the place - say https://www.toolots.com/bl330e-gear-head-bench-metal-lathe-with-stand.html or https://www.amazon.ca/BOLTON-Gear-Head-Spindle-Diameter-WARRANTY/dp/B009L9YXLS
)) The same lathe but in different color is 089 - see https://www.busybeetools.com/content/product_manuals/CT089.pdf
Looks familiar no? Magically it only has 1hp motor... but same amps
I guess new motor must be way more efficient
If you have a motor in same frame size that is 2hp go for it - probably the best solution.
If you google 13 x 24 lathe you find LOTS of copies of same machine all over the place - say https://www.toolots.com/bl330e-gear-head-bench-metal-lathe-with-stand.html or https://www.amazon.ca/BOLTON-Gear-Head-Spindle-Diameter-WARRANTY/dp/B009L9YXLS
It sounds as if I offended you Tom. So I am sorry if I did. That was not my intention.
I never said you were wrong. I simply said I "respectfully" disagree.
I don't mind someone having a different opinion than me, and I welcome everyone's idea on what the problem might be.
Your solution may very well end up being the right solution. If it is, I won't hesitate to post it here....but I'm still going to check out what I think is wrong first.
I never said you were wrong. I simply said I "respectfully" disagree.
I don't mind someone having a different opinion than me, and I welcome everyone's idea on what the problem might be.
Your solution may very well end up being the right solution. If it is, I won't hesitate to post it here....but I'm still going to check out what I think is wrong first.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
It sounds as if I offended you Tom. So I am sorry if I did. That was not my intention.
I never said you were wrong. I simply said I "respectfully" disagree.
I don't mind someone having a different opinion than me, and I welcome everyone's idea on what the problem might be.
Your solution may very well end up being the right solution. If it is, I won't hesitate to post it here....but I'm still going to check out what I think is wrong first.
Oh not at all - I just had the same lathe with same issue at same RPM. When starting it would try hard for like few seconds then slow down a bit (as I remember) and then the breaker in the motor would go off. When it happened the very first time I was scared I broke the lathe! But then I figured it out that the tiny motor cannot work from cold up to such high speed. It still happened once in a while but I got it working. Others had similar issues, its common for this lathe. I cannot believe BB just discovered it ... after a decade (!!!) of selling these!
There are other members here that own the same lathe - I am sure they have the same problem. Or maybe me and few other pp all had "flaky" motors?
I confess that I find it hard to believe that even a 1/4 hp motor might not have enough oomph to run a lathe at top speed with no load other than system friction and gear losses.
And I find it even harder to believe that BBee would sell such a thing for so long. That's just plain disgraceful!
And I find it even harder to believe that BBee would sell such a thing for so long. That's just plain disgraceful!
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
Well I am sure if there was a clutch system build in your 1/4 hp may have made it. Maybe. Problem is initial slow down caused by oil - oil is at the bottom happily resting and suddenly some gears are demanded to turn at close to 2000 rpm. Once system gets going it goes - the problem is initial inertia of the spindle. So if your 1/4 is "hardy" and does not mind huge overloads...
I suspect problem batch was set with belts by default on "high speed" vs. "low speed". Also it is cold now and oil they may have put by default may be something rather thick.
The motor is so under powered for this lathe that at top speed you can stop it with your hand with emery cloth with no effort at all. and I am talking about belt on low speed - on high speed I bet just looking at it will slow it down - i.e. there is no power left to do any useful work - even with emery cloth - maybe 400 grit.
BB guys are a bit clueless. All sales pp I remember at BB in Calgary did not know much - they just sell this stuff, they are not machinists or experts on it.
As I remember machine has 12 speeds, two belt positions - 6 speeds controlled with a levers - one lever is Hight and Low the other is 1 2 3.
There is a reason big machines (or even some small ones) have a clutch - there is a reason why lights in my neighborhood dim when I start my big lathe in top speed with meaningful load in the chuck - someone less then bright did not add clutch. My small lathe has a clutch.
It was a figure of speech Tom. I just picked 1/4 horse to make a point. Judging by everything everyone is posting, the motor in there is a gutless wonder.
Just can't stop thinking about your problem @DHHok, and cannot seem to stop myself from making suggestions and discussing alternatives.
First I want to say that I admire your tenacity. Some would throw the kitchen sink at the problem and be done with it. Your desire to rassle it to the ground and understand the root cause is the right way to go about it in my mind.
I suggested earlier to try running it without the drive belt(s). This will either rule out or confirm that the problem is affected by load.
If it still doesn't work then you know it's not a load related issue.
If it works, then you know the wiring is correct and the components are working as designed.
If it works, that wouldn't mean the design was correct though. The design still might be under-rated for the application. Also, it could still be a defective winding or a centrifugal switch that is cutting out too fast or a capacitor that isn't loading up adequately. But at least you will have ruled out a few obvious possibilities.
The other thing I can't seem to stop thinking about is the possibility that it's a combination of factors.
If I take the view that @Tom Kitta is correct about the issue being too much load due to thick oil on an underpowered motor, and that your hunch about the centrifugal switch or windings also being correct, then I can start to see the picture coming into focus.
Here is how I see that combined possibility making sense:
Available HP is the ability to do work at given rate. It is related to torque but is time dependant. HP manifests itself in your case as how long the motor takes to spin up to speed. For a given HP, the time to do that is governed by two factors - system inertia & load. It may well be that there are both inertia and load related differences between the high speed range and other ranges but the bottom line is that the motor may be marginal for the requirements. If so, it could take sooooo long to spin up that the start system does not have enough time to get things going fast enough for the run system to take over effectively. Or alternatively that the speed transition (what the centrifugal switch does) between low and high happens too early in the process when the motor doesn't have enough rotational speed to power through into normal operation. In both cases, the solution is to reduce load (thinner oil) OR increase the centrifugal set point.
A bad winding or an underpowered motor will both act the same way. However, the solution for them is a new or bigger motor.
Last, but not least is the matter of busy bee themselves. Knowing that they are just a flipper of machines built overseas and sold to Canadians, it is easy for me to believe that it might take decades to fix a problem. And furthermore, that they might take decades to even recognize it. Hence the special sale of a designated model number YEARS after the problem existed. Its also possible that someone someplace sued them over it and that got their attention.
Anyway, I really can't wait to see what you all find, and I apologize for throwing even more info at you.
First I want to say that I admire your tenacity. Some would throw the kitchen sink at the problem and be done with it. Your desire to rassle it to the ground and understand the root cause is the right way to go about it in my mind.
I suggested earlier to try running it without the drive belt(s). This will either rule out or confirm that the problem is affected by load.
If it still doesn't work then you know it's not a load related issue.
If it works, then you know the wiring is correct and the components are working as designed.
If it works, that wouldn't mean the design was correct though. The design still might be under-rated for the application. Also, it could still be a defective winding or a centrifugal switch that is cutting out too fast or a capacitor that isn't loading up adequately. But at least you will have ruled out a few obvious possibilities.
The other thing I can't seem to stop thinking about is the possibility that it's a combination of factors.
If I take the view that @Tom Kitta is correct about the issue being too much load due to thick oil on an underpowered motor, and that your hunch about the centrifugal switch or windings also being correct, then I can start to see the picture coming into focus.
Here is how I see that combined possibility making sense:
Available HP is the ability to do work at given rate. It is related to torque but is time dependant. HP manifests itself in your case as how long the motor takes to spin up to speed. For a given HP, the time to do that is governed by two factors - system inertia & load. It may well be that there are both inertia and load related differences between the high speed range and other ranges but the bottom line is that the motor may be marginal for the requirements. If so, it could take sooooo long to spin up that the start system does not have enough time to get things going fast enough for the run system to take over effectively. Or alternatively that the speed transition (what the centrifugal switch does) between low and high happens too early in the process when the motor doesn't have enough rotational speed to power through into normal operation. In both cases, the solution is to reduce load (thinner oil) OR increase the centrifugal set point.
A bad winding or an underpowered motor will both act the same way. However, the solution for them is a new or bigger motor.
Last, but not least is the matter of busy bee themselves. Knowing that they are just a flipper of machines built overseas and sold to Canadians, it is easy for me to believe that it might take decades to fix a problem. And furthermore, that they might take decades to even recognize it. Hence the special sale of a designated model number YEARS after the problem existed. Its also possible that someone someplace sued them over it and that got their attention.
Anyway, I really can't wait to see what you all find, and I apologize for throwing even more info at you.
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Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
I just realized BB was / is aware of the issue and hence they advertise bigger 1.5hp motor vs. old 1hp. But why false advertising of 1hp motor? Well, you can get 1.5hp in 120v - PA sells 1.5hp with 14 amps at 110V. So it is possible. Costs would not be huge and problem would be solved. After all BB gets Chinese to paint lathes their colors so putting in bigger motor would not be a problem... or so it seems.
Putting in 1.5hp would mean that they had to change the belt system as I doubt single 1/2" belt could transmit 1.5hp at both ratios. So either 5/8 belt or twin 1/2". There may not be enough space for twin 1/2".
But there is even bigger problem - which stopped them in their tracks - the gear mechanism needs to be rated for 1.5hp. If its not people would break gears in the machine. The machine has good low range. Imagine taking a heavy cut of say 6" piece at lowest speed. Gear train should be able to handle this up to stalling of the machine. I bet they were worried that with 1.5hp there will be just enough power to break something in the gearbox vs. stalling. Say hello to huge warranty problem.
So cheapest & safest solution was to rebadge old 1hp as "new" 1.5hp.
I am still shocked they did not demand ISO 32 oil in their machines - or maybe they did but got thicker one anyways.
As for "flaky" motors they simply may have a bit too weak centrifugal switch spring which turns at a bit lower speed & without help of extra winding the motor under load cannot get up to speed. Or they may have a bit too aggressive safety mechanism that turns off the motor too early to protect it.
Best solution is to switch to 2hp & do not hammer the machine in low gear. Also be aware there will be belt slip.
Putting in 1.5hp would mean that they had to change the belt system as I doubt single 1/2" belt could transmit 1.5hp at both ratios. So either 5/8 belt or twin 1/2". There may not be enough space for twin 1/2".
But there is even bigger problem - which stopped them in their tracks - the gear mechanism needs to be rated for 1.5hp. If its not people would break gears in the machine. The machine has good low range. Imagine taking a heavy cut of say 6" piece at lowest speed. Gear train should be able to handle this up to stalling of the machine. I bet they were worried that with 1.5hp there will be just enough power to break something in the gearbox vs. stalling. Say hello to huge warranty problem.
So cheapest & safest solution was to rebadge old 1hp as "new" 1.5hp.
I am still shocked they did not demand ISO 32 oil in their machines - or maybe they did but got thicker one anyways.
As for "flaky" motors they simply may have a bit too weak centrifugal switch spring which turns at a bit lower speed & without help of extra winding the motor under load cannot get up to speed. Or they may have a bit too aggressive safety mechanism that turns off the motor too early to protect it.
Best solution is to switch to 2hp & do not hammer the machine in low gear. Also be aware there will be belt slip.
That's good. It's always difficult to discuss different opinions when your not face to face, because how a sentence is read and in what tone, can completely change its intention.
So it's good to know that we're just having a friendly chat.
I went down the road of checking the motor 1st because I feel the same as Susquatch and find it hard to believe BB would sell a machine for years with a know problem.....and why would they only identify a small batch of machines as having an issue and then go right back to selling them. That doesn't make sense even for a reseller and Chinese company.
Also, I'm checking the motor first because I'm stubborn and always blindly go down the path I believe is right, even when others have been there and tell me it's wrong. I have to see it for myself type attitude.
Susquatch, make as many suggestions as you like.
I haven't run the motor without the belt because I believe it will easily run up to speed. It runs in 9 of the 12 gears, so it does run with a load. No reason it wouldn't run without load. Stranger things have happened though, so it's an easy test to do.
Last night I removed the motor and checked the centrifugal switch. It looks to be good. If it is dropping out too early (as I suggested), I have no way of changing that, as there is no way to adjust the spring tension. So I'm going to say the switch is ok. (One step closer to an oil change
)My previous post saying there were 3 windings in the motor is incorrect. There are 2 windings and the capacitor/switch circuit. I had to go online last night and re-educate myself on single phase motors. I say "re-educate", because (embarrassingly) I should know this. I took automation/robotics in college and motors where a big part of it. That was decades ago, though. So, as the saying goes, "Use it or lose it".
I did check both windings with a meter and get continuity in both, so there is no break there. The meter can't tell me if there is a short somewhere in one of the windings, so that is still a possibility. If there is a short, it would cause a loss of power/torque. I'd have to take it to a rebuilder to get the windings tested properly, which I will do if I can't solve the problem. I also checked the cap circuit, with and without the centrifugal switch closed and it metered as expected.
So I now know for sure what each motor wire is.
My next step is to pull out the forward/reverse switch and confirm it is functioning correctly. Then I'm going to wire the motor and circuit up how I know it should be.
If it still doesn't work.......then I will change the oil. Be patient Tom. I'm getting there.
Tom, the belt system is still 1/2" single belt.
I just realized I don't think I can use the 2hp motor I have because it isn't reversible. The reversing part completely slipped my mind until just now.
Worst case scenario, if I can't find out what the problem is, I'll just use as is for now, until I decide to change to VFD.
I just realized I don't think I can use the 2hp motor I have because it isn't reversible. The reversing part completely slipped my mind until just now.
Worst case scenario, if I can't find out what the problem is, I'll just use as is for now, until I decide to change to VFD.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
That's good. It's always difficult to discuss different opinions when your not face to face, because how a sentence is read and in what tone, can completely change its intention.
So it's good to know that we're just having a friendly chat.
I went down the road of checking the motor 1st because I feel the same as Susquatch and find it hard to believe BB would sell a machine for years with a know problem.....and why would they only identify a small batch of machines as having an issue and then go right back to selling them. That doesn't make sense even for a reseller and Chinese company.
Also, I'm checking the motor first because I'm stubborn and always blindly go down the path I believe is right, even when others have been there and tell me it's wrong. I have to see it for myself type attitude.
Susquatch, make as many suggestions as you like.
I haven't run the motor without the belt because I believe it will easily run up to speed. It runs in 9 of the 12 gears, so it does run with a load. No reason it wouldn't run without load. Stranger things have happened though, so it's an easy test to do.
Last night I removed the motor and checked the centrifugal switch. It looks to be good. If it is dropping out too early (as I suggested), I have no way of changing that, as there is no way to adjust the spring tension. So I'm going to say the switch is ok. (One step closer to an oil change
My previous post saying there were 3 windings in the motor is incorrect. There are 2 windings and the capacitor/switch circuit. I had to go online last night and re-educate myself on single phase motors. I say "re-educate", because (embarrassingly) I should know this. I took automation/robotics in college and motors where a big part of it. That was decades ago, though. So, as the saying goes, "Use it or lose it".
I did check both windings with a meter and get continuity in both, so there is no break there. The meter can't tell me if there is a short somewhere in one of the windings, so that is still a possibility. If there is a short, it would cause a loss of power/torque. I'd have to take it to a rebuilder to get the windings tested properly, which I will do if I can't solve the problem. I also checked the cap circuit, with and without the centrifugal switch closed and it metered as expected.
So I now know for sure what each motor wire is.
My next step is to pull out the forward/reverse switch and confirm it is functioning correctly. Then I'm going to wire the motor and circuit up how I know it should be.
If it still doesn't work.......then I will change the oil. Be patient Tom. I'm getting there.
I am curious - does it say 1.5hp on the badge of the motor next to 11 amps draw?
I am also not 100% on motor theory - details. When the starter winding stops at say 1000 rpm and motor has to get to its "normal" speed of say 1760 rpm (1800rpm minus slip) what is the torque like? Since we do need starter winding I am guessing that torque is lower then the one at normal speed.
Also I wonder if playing with run capacitor may help - maybe flaky motor means a bit too weak run capacitor - they are made in values in between - maybe these are on the lower end of the stamped value. Or even under performing.
Tom Kitta
Ultra Member
Tom, the belt system is still 1/2" single belt.
I just realized I don't think I can use the 2hp motor I have because it isn't reversible. The reversing part completely slipped my mind until just now.
Worst case scenario, if I can't find out what the problem is, I'll just use as is for now, until I decide to change to VFD.
You can get reversing motors at PA. Or sometimes on auctions - but they are indeed rare.
It says 1100 Watts, which is just shy of 1.5hp. It's also rated at 14.5A, not 11. I'm going to confirm the running amps once I put it back together.
I thought of the cap size also. The caps are larger than what the internet says they should be. But then so are the caps on my compressor motor, and it runs fine. I think the internet might be wrong sometimes.
If I can't fix the problem, I really don't think I'll replace the motor. The speeds it can run at are enough for me at this point in time. If I end up needing more (and I keep the lathe), I'll switch to VFD.
Hmmmmm..... All good stuff. I'd still test it no load. Easy peasy to do.
If it were here, I'd put an oscilloscope on it and watch the ramp up voltage current and speed.
Caps are typically +/- 10 or even 20%. No harm in trying a bigger or smaller one.
My lathe has a 2hp 230V volt single phase motor in it. Someday (not at top of my priorities) I will put a 3ph motor and VFD in it to get lower speeds than available now.
Not safe to assume torque goes down with rpm. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the motor.
Very odd that the motor model number from the online docs doesn't match the motor specs. Do you have the actual motor model number handy?
If it were here, I'd put an oscilloscope on it and watch the ramp up voltage current and speed.
Caps are typically +/- 10 or even 20%. No harm in trying a bigger or smaller one.
My lathe has a 2hp 230V volt single phase motor in it. Someday (not at top of my priorities) I will put a 3ph motor and VFD in it to get lower speeds than available now.
Not safe to assume torque goes down with rpm. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the motor.
Very odd that the motor model number from the online docs doesn't match the motor specs. Do you have the actual motor model number handy?
I'm not very electrically savvy, so take these comments as FWIW.
On bigger motors its common to state both 'unloaded running amps' and FLA (full load amps) and/or sometimes maximum amps which I think leans more to running conditions at load. Depending on what you read, FLA can be +35% higher than RA. FLA is probably more important if FLA is tickling/exceeding wire/plug/breaker rating, because you cannot get to lower nominal running current before first going through initial higher current in start mode. Now maybe on lower watt hobby motors like this, they are not documenting RA/FLA distinction - they assume typical wall outlet amp rating has lots of headroom so who cares. Or to be 'safe' they are referencing FLA as 'the current' & that is artificially inflating the motor power which sounds better on brochure even though we don't machine anything in start mode. I guess my point is, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in what is on the specs coming from these countries. Sometimes you will see the N-Am importers attempt to CSA-itize the offshore specs, either to clarify or cover their butts, not sure. The only way to know is put a meter on the line & see what it's drawing. Only reason I mention this is to flush out what your line/breaker situation is. Some people have observed funky things where they have (I think they are called) ground fault outlets. Or their breaker/line is borderline to FLA & that's tripping something on the machine side depending on what it has for protection circuitry. And who knows, maybe FLA is rated at room temp but the motor could physically pull a bit more current with more viscous oil? Some of the blondihacks vids I've seen she resets or pops in new fuses like some people pop Smarties.
Getting back the the centrifugal switch assembly. There is the CS itself, confirm it's counterweights are able to swing out properly, proper spring pressure, unobstructed motion etc. But (depending on CS design) there may also be the underlying contactor plate which is making the physical electrical contact to respective capacitor circuit as CS moves in/out of position. In my case it was that particular POS that was causing grief. The contact pads are on the end of a sheet metal arm, kind of a rudimentary spring. You can bend them quite easily. If they are not bent quite enough, the physical contact is weak which means current can be interrupted or flakey - sloppy switch syndrome. Or the pads can get pitted or burnt from false starts & such & need to be dressed. Low contact area = high resistance. Next time you are in there, take a pic & share. This may or may not pertain to your machine because CS come in different flavors.
On bigger motors its common to state both 'unloaded running amps' and FLA (full load amps) and/or sometimes maximum amps which I think leans more to running conditions at load. Depending on what you read, FLA can be +35% higher than RA. FLA is probably more important if FLA is tickling/exceeding wire/plug/breaker rating, because you cannot get to lower nominal running current before first going through initial higher current in start mode. Now maybe on lower watt hobby motors like this, they are not documenting RA/FLA distinction - they assume typical wall outlet amp rating has lots of headroom so who cares. Or to be 'safe' they are referencing FLA as 'the current' & that is artificially inflating the motor power which sounds better on brochure even though we don't machine anything in start mode. I guess my point is, I wouldn't put a lot of faith in what is on the specs coming from these countries. Sometimes you will see the N-Am importers attempt to CSA-itize the offshore specs, either to clarify or cover their butts, not sure. The only way to know is put a meter on the line & see what it's drawing. Only reason I mention this is to flush out what your line/breaker situation is. Some people have observed funky things where they have (I think they are called) ground fault outlets. Or their breaker/line is borderline to FLA & that's tripping something on the machine side depending on what it has for protection circuitry. And who knows, maybe FLA is rated at room temp but the motor could physically pull a bit more current with more viscous oil? Some of the blondihacks vids I've seen she resets or pops in new fuses like some people pop Smarties.
Getting back the the centrifugal switch assembly. There is the CS itself, confirm it's counterweights are able to swing out properly, proper spring pressure, unobstructed motion etc. But (depending on CS design) there may also be the underlying contactor plate which is making the physical electrical contact to respective capacitor circuit as CS moves in/out of position. In my case it was that particular POS that was causing grief. The contact pads are on the end of a sheet metal arm, kind of a rudimentary spring. You can bend them quite easily. If they are not bent quite enough, the physical contact is weak which means current can be interrupted or flakey - sloppy switch syndrome. Or the pads can get pitted or burnt from false starts & such & need to be dressed. Low contact area = high resistance. Next time you are in there, take a pic & share. This may or may not pertain to your machine because CS come in different flavors.
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trlvn
Ultra Member
Rare? Not in my experience. For example, the following is an old CGE 1hp utility motor:
Sorry for the poor picture but it says to interchange the black and red leads to reverse rotation.
The following is the wiring diagram from my Craftex mill drill:
In this case, swapping 5 and 6 reverses rotation.
To work with a drum switch, the leads inside the motor need to be extended out to the switch.
Craig
