MrWhoopee
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I dropped the last "l"
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Best type of face mill?
- Thread starter Megar arc 5040dd
- Start date
Megar arc 5040dd
Super User
I am currently looking at this https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...ryfF0Ka2&utparam-url=scene:search|query_from: I like the free shipping it feels like less of as gamble if it doesn't work out I"m not out the shipping. My only hang up is I don't know what BAP300R and BAP400R means so I don't know what to select. I have been googling like crazy and can't figure out what the difference is or even what it means.
MrWhoopee
Well-Known Member
A little searching reveals that the BAP300r uses the APKT/APMT1135 insert while the BAP400r uses the APKT/APMT1604 insert.I have both, but I find that the smaller inserts will do everything I need, which is .100 DOC in heat-treated 5140 (HRc 40-42)
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Megar arc 5040dd
Super User
Thank you so much I have spent an embarrassing amount of time trying to google that and figure that out. Could you please post a link to that info I would love to read it and learn.
MrWhoopee
Well-Known Member
I just Googled each one individually, then checked the insert size for the cutter.
Megar arc 5040dd
Super User
I'm not sure if it's because I have been searching face mills on aliexpress for the past few days but when I tried to google anything to do with BAP300R all that came up was places selling face mills probably 90% of the links were aliexpress. After going 3 pages deep on google I would try something a little different and get the same results.
Welcome to the confusing world of Ali Express. You might be trying to find something that doesn't exist. Not everything sold there complies with standards. And even if it does use industry standard terms, they may not be right. The outfits that sell on Ali are mostly all little mom & pop shops in China that acquire stuff by Lord knows what method from a factory and then sell on Ali.
As far as I can tell, they are just different size range ratings of the same thing. Sort of like BXA and AXA tools. Here is a chart I found on Amazon:
Note that both sizes cover 2" but you can't get the smaller one in the bigger size from that seller and you can't get the bigger one in the smaller size. Since insert standardization is a worthy goal for hobbiests, I'd pick which ever one has inserts you are more likely to use elsewhere.
In my case, that's the bigger one of these two with the APKT1604 inserts. However, I was able to find other smaller diameter tools that use this same insert. In fact, I have a drill that uses these inserts.
Different inserts is an ugly monster to a hobbiest guy like me. Once you have the size, you also need them for different materials (inserts for steel, aluminium, SS, Cast iron, etc) and also several different nose radii for each. The last thing I want is a different size insert with all those variations. So, when I buy tools, I always buy ones that use the size and style of insert that I standardized on.
I don't know where you are on your insert learning journey. I'm relatively new with just a year of actually using them under my belt. But before that I prolly spent 3 years learning about them to avoid mistakes.
Keep in mind that a set of fly cutters with HSS bits will do everything a face mill will do. Just slower and needing less hp.
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Megar arc 5040dd
Super User
Ok so here is where I am at thanks to everyone help. I have found a 50mm face mill that comes with an R8 arbor https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32975142215.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.44877b072v4TqV&mp=1 . It is available with 2 different insert sizes the 300R or 400R. From what I can figure that is 1135 or 1604 inserts. I can get a cutter as small as 25mm that would use the same 1604 inserts or I can get cutters down to 10mm that use the 1135 inserts. Obviously if I went with 1135 I would have more size options available to me and only have to stock one size of insert. Now my question is will there be any downsize to using the smaller 1135 insert in the larger 50mm cutter as apposed to the 1604 inserts? Will it not work as well for me or will it limit me in any significant way? I have fly cutters and have used them for the last 7ish years and they work good except I have found that the HSS dulls very fast when cutting through mill scale and rust. So I would like to finally get into some carbide insert tools.
The idea is to either by the 50mm shell mill with the 1135 inserts and a few indexable end mills in a 2 or 3 sizes. Or get the 50mm with 1604 and a 25mm that uses the same inserts, with hopefully a shank that will fit an er32 collet, and then maybe a few random sized cheap carbide end mills try out.
I have to narrow down my list soon my wife wants a list of birthday present ideas for me hence the millions of questions I have been asking
The idea is to either by the 50mm shell mill with the 1135 inserts and a few indexable end mills in a 2 or 3 sizes. Or get the 50mm with 1604 and a 25mm that uses the same inserts, with hopefully a shank that will fit an er32 collet, and then maybe a few random sized cheap carbide end mills try out.
I have to narrow down my list soon my wife wants a list of birthday present ideas for me hence the millions of questions I have been asking
The only downside to smaller inserts is cost savings (not a downside just fun calling it that) and lower resistance to chipping and breaking. Even the screws are bigger for the bigger inserts.
It sounds like you have a smaller mill. Go with the smaller inserts. Save some money and live with the odd broken insert.
I know, I have the bigger ones. These are for steel, stainless and aluminium. But figure you prolly need 2 or 3x this many to get different nose sizes...... It all adds up.
This is also why I wonder why I ever decided to get into inserts. I was happy with HSS. Ya, inserts are more convenient than an ongoing grinding exercise. But man do they ever add up.
And yes, you don't really need all the nose sizes..... Until you do....
And yes, inserts for Aluminium will cut steel. But then they don't last.
I'm still waiting to evaluate stainless inserts on steel and aluminium.
It sounds like you have a smaller mill. Go with the smaller inserts. Save some money and live with the odd broken insert.
I know, I have the bigger ones. These are for steel, stainless and aluminium. But figure you prolly need 2 or 3x this many to get different nose sizes...... It all adds up.
This is also why I wonder why I ever decided to get into inserts. I was happy with HSS. Ya, inserts are more convenient than an ongoing grinding exercise. But man do they ever add up.
And yes, you don't really need all the nose sizes..... Until you do....
And yes, inserts for Aluminium will cut steel. But then they don't last.
I'm still waiting to evaluate stainless inserts on steel and aluminium.
I use brased carbide lathe tools on my fly cutters.
Buy Tool Bit Carbide Bl8 C5 3pcs at Busy Bee Tools
B3519 3pc Carbide Tipped Brazed Tool Bits For general machining operations Feature C6 carbide tip for cutting steel and steel alloys Type: BL8
www.busybeetools.com
Buy Fly Cutter 1/2in. 3pc Set at Busy Bee Tools
Fly Cutter SetTop QualityCounter balancedMade of hardened steelUses standard tool-bitsShank Dia.: 1/2"Includes Head Dia.: 3/4", 1 1/8", 1 1/2"Standard Tool Bit Size: 3/16", 1/4", 5/16"
www.busybeetools.com
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Megar arc 5040dd
Super User
Do they work well? I have the same 3 piece fly cutter set I would have to get some brazed carbide small enough to fit them or make a larger fly cutter. I have a few cheap brazed carbide kicking around I think they are 3/8" shank if I recall.I use brased carbide lathe tools on my fly cutters.
Buy Tool Bit Carbide Bl8 C5 3pcs at Busy Bee Tools
B3519 3pc Carbide Tipped Brazed Tool Bits For general machining operations Feature C6 carbide tip for cutting steel and steel alloys Type: BL8
Buy Fly Cutter 1/2in. 3pc Set at Busy Bee Tools
Fly Cutter SetTop QualityCounter balancedMade of hardened steelUses standard tool-bitsShank Dia.: 1/2"Includes Head Dia.: 3/4", 1 1/8", 1 1/2"Standard Tool Bit Size: 3/16", 1/4", 5/16"
That's all I use except for the smallest cutter.
Megar arc 5040dd
Super User
That's a good idea those are the same type of inserts I have for the lathe.
Yes & no. The geometry of mill cutters is typically different than for turning. I'm sure they can be made to work providing the pockets are cut properly. But that presumes they know what they are doing & that's a big if. This is exactly where people have run into issues with some offshore models with the net result they own a small boat anchor. Early on I had an end mill with 3 triangle inserts. It made brutally ugly hot chips & sounded like the machine was going to come apart. Bought different triangles of the same family species, no better. Turns out the pockets were set a) bad b) inconsistent by like 7-deg. I do share my lathe inserts across many cutting tools though (CCMT). Turning, chamfering, L&R, boring bars... I'm not saying they don't exist because they do. Just check some review of that specific model.