Aluminum wire going to make a comeback?

[Elektrishun]

I see the wow face @Elektrishun , but an apprentice on a residential job was killed here when his forehead brushed a live 120v hot. So it is just as deadly, and i've heard the argument that a 120v poke is deadlier than 240v and above because it won't throw you off.

I am not doubting 120V, under the right circumstances, can be dangerous.

But the odds are that contact with 600/347 is going to be far worse.

347V is deadly because that is the voltage that causes your muscles to contract where you can't let go.

600V will be a mule kick with burns.

 

[Elektrishun]

Survival of the fittest....

Reminds me of a documentary about a tribe in the Amazon Rainforest that builds treehouses, I dunno, a hundred feet up. The whole family is up there and the kids are wandering around like it's a 2 foot drop off the outdoor deck.

Like you stated, Survival of The Fittest.

 

[Darren]

I am not doubting 120V, under the right circumstances, can be dangerous.

But the odds are that contact with 600/347 is going to be far worse.

347V is deadly because that is the voltage that causes your muscles to contract where you can't let go.

600V will be a mule kick with burns.

See that contradicts what i have heard. 120v and you can't let go, 240v and you do let go. Thankfully i haven't experienced it either way. I burned the shit out of my ass cheeks welding on an asphalt plant in the rain (see the pun there?), so even 30v can hurt like hell. The plant would get shut down by MTO in the rain, so we would always do plant maintenance in bad weather

 

[Darren]

Reminds me of a documentary about a tribe in the Amazon Rainforest that builds treehouses, I dunno, a hundred feet up. The whole family is up there and the kids are wandering around like it's a 2 foot drop off the outdoor deck.

Like you stated, Survival of The Fittest.

I was watching a show about baby cougars learning to hunt mountain goats today. On the side of a 900' cliff. How are these animals not extinct?

 

[Elektrishun]

See that contradicts what i have heard. 120v and you can't let go, 240v and you do let go. Thankfully i haven't experienced it either way. I burned the shit out of my ass cheeks welding on an asphalt plant in the rain (see the pun there?), so even 30v can hurt like hell.

No, in all seriousness. 347V is super dangerous compared to 120V or even 240V. I have taken the electrical safety courses numerous times.

You can get away from contact with 120V. But if it passes through your body the right way it can create ventricular fibrillation.

 

[Elektrishun]

I was watching a show about baby cougars learning to hunt mountain goats today. On the side of a 900' cliff. How are these animals not extinct?

I once read a book by Jared Diamond which discussed theories on evolution. One of the sections that I remember and recall often is his theory on why male birds are so colorful. Didn't think had anything to do with attracting females in the obvious way. And why would evolution not give them camouflage instead to help avoid predators? He purposed that if you can be that colorful and survive it means you are a strong male and that's what makes you attractive to females.

Maybe that has something to do with hunting on 900' cliffs? You successfully hunt in that terrain and you get all the "bird feeder" you want (see the thread about mice for "bird feeder" which refers to an animal that is a slang term for, well, you know ).

 

[Elektrishun]

See that contradicts what i have heard. 120v and you can't let go, 240v and you do let go. Thankfully i haven't experienced it either way. I burned the shit out of my ass cheeks welding on an asphalt plant in the rain (see the pun there?), so even 30v can hurt like hell. The plant would get shut down by MTO in the rain, so we would always do plant maintenance in bad weather

I don't weld, wish I knew how. But that was 30V DC?

If that is a correct assumption then that would likely have been high current toasting your buns. Like a 12V car battery. The voltage ain't much but if you get between the posts it's going to get hot real quick.

 

[Darren]

When I was about 5 years old I stuck something metal in an outlet and got a zap. No harm done other than I learnt a painful lesson that day.

And now you're a sparky. I took a lawnmower engine apart when I has 5 or 6 and I'm a mechanic. Interesting.

 

[Elektrishun]

And now you're a sparky. I took a lawnmower engine apart when I has 5 or 6 and I'm a mechanic. Interesting.

My brother would tear apart every bike he had and he's a mechanic. Go figure.

 

[Darren]

I don't weld, wish I knew how. But that was 30V DC?

If that is a correct assumption then that would likely have been high current toasting your buns. Like a 12V car battery. The voltage ain't much but if you get between the posts it's going to get hot real quick.

It was high current low voltage, soaking wet, pouring rain, building up the mixing paddles due to wear. All steel structure, everything is bare metal in the hopper/ wear areas. Path of least resistance was my ass when it wasn't the electrode. I barely felt it until i got home and my GF thought they were beating me at work.

the ground was permanently bolted to the structure of the plant. The foam rubber insulated welding lead was wrapped around me. Worst pain for a month or so.

 

[BaitMaster]

The worst I’ve heard of guys getting blasted is on 347. High voltage DC is no friggin joke either.

My days as a young apprentice instrument mechanic saw me shocked by an adjustable dc power supply that I had turned on high voltage range instead of low. 200vdc on a stainless work bench is not a fun time.

 

[slow-poke]

I am not doubting 120V, under the right circumstances, can be dangerous.

But the odds are that contact with 600/347 is going to be far worse.

347V is deadly because that is the voltage that causes your muscles to contract where you can't let go.

600V will be a mule kick with burns.

We were taught 600V injures and kills more electricians than any other voltage, usually from arc fault type situations. So they get thrown off or clamp on is one aspect, but the amount of energy released from a typical 600V fault is just so much higher. Under normal circumstances arc faults don't occur when the service is < 480V.

From Wikipedia....

OSHA found that up to 80 percent of its electrical injuries involve thermal burns due to arcing faults. The arc flash in an electrical fault produces the same type of light radiation from which electric welders protect themselves.

As an example of the energy released in an arc flash incident, in a single phase-to-phase fault on a 480 V system with 20,000 amps of fault current, the resulting power is 9.6 MW. If the fault lasts for 10 cycles at 60 Hz, the resulting energy would be 1.6 megajoules. For comparison, TNT releases 2175 J/g or more when detonated (a conventional value of 4,184 J/g is used for TNT equivalent). Thus, this fault energy is equivalent to 380 grams (approximately 0.8 pounds) of TNT. The character of an arc flash blast is quite different from a chemical explosion (more heat and light, less mechanical shock), but the resulting devastation is comparable. The rapidly expanding superheated vapor produced by the arc can cause serious injury or damage, and the intense UV, visible, and IR light produced by the arc can temporarily and sometimes even permanently blind or cause eye damage to people.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2850586771762364

 

[Elektrishun]

We were taught 600V injures and kills more electricians than any other voltage, usually from arc fault type situations. So the get thrown off or clamp on is one aspect, but the amount of energy released from a typical 600V fault is just so much higher. Under normal circumstances arc faults don't occur when the service is < 480V.

From Wikipedia....

OSHA found that up to 80 percent of its electrical injuries involve thermal burns due to arcing faults. The arc flash in an electrical fault produces the same type of light radiation from which electric welders protect themselves.

As an example of the energy released in an arc flash incident, in a single phase-to-phase fault on a 480 V system with 20,000 amps of fault current, the resulting power is 9.6 MW. If the fault lasts for 10 cycles at 60 Hz, the resulting energy would be 1.6 megajoules. For comparison, TNT releases 2175 J/g or more when detonated (a conventional value of 4,184 J/g is used for TNT equivalent). Thus, this fault energy is equivalent to 380 grams (approximately 0.8 pounds) of TNT. The character of an arc flash blast is quite different from a chemical explosion (more heat and light, less mechanical shock), but the resulting devastation is comparable. The rapidly expanding superheated vapor produced by the arc can cause serious injury or damage, and the intense UV, visible, and IR light produced by the arc can temporarily and sometimes even permanently blind or cause eye damage to people.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2850586771762364

Not surprised to read that.

People who die in an arc flash incident can die for more reasons other being electrocuted or burns.
From what I remember being taught in an arc flash situation there is "incident energy" which is comprised of not only the potential for electrocution/burns but a "pressure wave".

As the voltage goes up the pressure wave becomes even more deadly. If you were wearing a suit that might protect you from the arc the pressure wave can throw you so hard that if there was a wall or other object x number of feet behind you can be crushed against it. As it was described by one of my electrical safety instructors that the protective suit can become a convenient body bag.

 

[trevj]

Not surprised to read that.

People who die in an arc flash incident can die for more reasons other being electrocuted or burns.
From what I remember being taught in an arc flash situation there is "incident energy" which is comprised of not only the potential for electrocution/burns but a "pressure wave".

As the voltage goes up the pressure wave becomes even more deadly. If you were wearing a suit that might protect you from the arc the pressure wave can throw you so hard that if there was a wall or other object x number of feet behind you can be crushed against it. As it was described by one of my electrical safety instructors that the protective suit can become a convenient body bag.

We ran a lot of 550V, 3Ph power in the hangars I worked in. The power switches were on the left hand side of the box. We were taught the Right Hand Rule, which, essentially meant that you never switched the power on, other than with your right hand. The "Switch" was a lever mounted on the LH side of the power box.

We were all invited to see the fallout of a failure, one day. The fellow followed the Right Hand Rule, and was unhurt. The cover from the switch box, made better than a hundred feet from where it started, when the flash went off, completely missing the guy that threw the switch. Apparently, two of the phases were shorted together. Much excitement!

We ran a lot of different voltages and frequencies on the aircraft, ranging from 28v DC @1000-1200 amps, to a lot of 115v AC 400Htz stuff. Rules like "Keep one hand in your pocket" were a thing.

 

[djberta]

I teach a part of my safety course on arc flash's. The higher the potential the worse the arc flash. It is all about the available energy. We like to equate it to 1cal/cm Square is comparable to a large candle burning against your skin. Now at 40 cal it is 40 of the same candles all at the same cm square burning against your skin. Even a small arc flash can send out molten hot copper that can hurt people and blind them. 600, even 480 is no joke with contact. 347 can have your muscles contract so hard that they tear off the bone. Usually in that case the person is not likely to survive. It only takes a 100 to 200ma to kill you. An instantaneous short circuit can be in the tens of thousands of amps. I have worked on systems that had 65000 amp arc fault ratings, which required that we install 100k amp fault rated equipment.

Every year in Alberta we record deaths from 120v. In my safety course I use an example from Grand Prairie of a home owner helping a plumber install a new boiler. They removed a utility receptacle that was bx wired in to an 1110 box. they did not kill the power to the receptacle. All they did was pull the receptacle out and unscrew the 1110 and pushing it out of the way. When they were running a new line past the boiler the homeowner kneeling down bumped the 1110 box on the end of the bx and the exposed portion of the receptacle contacted his neck. Killing him.

Back to the OP, aluminum wire is and will be making a come back in residential construction. As there is the scale back in the use of natural gas coming. Currently natural gas use is set to be phased out completely by 2050. Electrification will require billions of Km's of cable. Copper is expensive and costs more then aluminum to produce. Aluminum wire was never the problem, installation practices, failure by the industry and manufactures to change products and end devices. Failure to maintain the installations is why aluminum failed. It was sold at the time as a direct replacement to copper, which in never really was. Metal staples driven hard against the wire can cause an arc fault to occur. Poor termination and splicing as well. With the changes in technology and use of AFI circuiting it is likely these short comings can be over come. Do not get me wrong I have replaced aluminum wire in more then one house and do see it as a risk. But it is coming to the industry.

 

[Janger]

And again the depth of knowledge and experience of the people on the forum is stunning.

 

[djberta]

We ran a lot of 550V, 3Ph power in the hangars I worked in. The power switches were on the left hand side of the box. We were taught the Right Hand Rule, which, essentially meant that you never switched the power on, other than with your right hand. The "Switch" was a lever mounted on the LH side of the power box.

We were all invited to see the fallout of a failure, one day. The fellow followed the Right Hand Rule, and was unhurt. The cover from the switch box, made better than a hundred feet from where it started, when the flash went off, completely missing the guy that threw the switch. Apparently, two of the phases were shorted together. Much excitement!

We ran a lot of different voltages and frequencies on the aircraft, ranging from 28v DC @1000-1200 amps, to a lot of 115v AC 400Htz stuff. Rules like "Keep one hand in your pocket" were a thing.

I was working on an old rig referb. I was in the plug board doing some wiring when the lead called me out to go watch by the door as he was going to fire up the gens and put 2 of the 3 online. I was standing at the door when he went to put the first gen online. This guy had a mantra about putting all the covers on and closing the cabinet doors. Other guys scoffed at it. He charged the breaker stood off to the side and pressed the closed button. In a large flash the breaker blew out and fired parts all around the inside of the cabinet. It blew a bit out the front cover but not much. Both of us were basically unharmed. The lead had gloves on and he closed the breaker with his right hand. After shutting everything down and having a good momement to calm down. We found out what happened. Some one left a crescent wrench across the load side of the breaker right on the back. We did not see it clearing the buss as it was hidden by the line side above it. After that and later in my career I have done my diligence to make sure the buss was clear before powering.

 

[trevj]

I was working on an old rig referb. I was in the plug board doing some wiring when the lead called me out to go watch by the door as he was going to fire up the gens and put 2 of the 3 online. I was standing at the door when he went to put the first gen online. This guy had a mantra about putting all the covers on and closing the cabinet doors. Other guys scoffed at it. He charged the breaker stood off to the side and pressed the closed button. In a large flash the breaker blew out and fired parts all around the inside of the cabinet. It blew a bit out the front cover but not much. Both of us were basically unharmed. The lead had gloves on and he closed the breaker with his right hand. After shutting everything down and having a good momement to calm down. We found out what happened. Some one left a crescent wrench across the load side of the breaker right on the back. We did not see it clearing the buss as it was hidden by the line side above it. After that and later in my career I have done my diligence to make sure the buss was clear before powering.

Ayup! Excrement eventuates! LOL! (sh*t happens!)

Good habits, especially when you understand why they exist, can save your bacon, when the fire flares! It may have not a single thing to do with what you are doing that day, but if someone else screwed the pooch, it could still kill you just as dead!

 

[Susquatch]

Currently natural gas use is set to be phased out completely by 2050.

Back at the turn of the century gasoline was set to be phased out completely by 2020. Didn't happen. Governments often make stupid plans and stupid laws. I won't be around in 2050, but I'd put really big money on the fact that natural gas will still be a healthy part of Canada's energy portfolio long after I am gone.

 

[djberta]

Back at the turn of the century gasoline was set to be phased out completely by 2020. Didn't happen. Governments often make stupid plans and stupid laws. I won't be around in 2050, but I'd put really big money on the fact that natural gas will still be a healthy part of Canada's energy portfolio long after I am gone.

I really hope so. Because the same politicians pushing this agenda are doing nothing to expand the grid.