4 Jaw Chuck

[Tom Kitta]

So since others were buying chucks I just got a new one - 5C.

Reviews are good:

Amazon

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

I paid 160 with tax and prime delivery.

As soon as I paid price jumped to... 301 plus tax... got to love Amazon surge algorithm. Cheapest on ali are about 225 plus any taxes in Canada if any.

I was going to hope amazon does not do this and someone can get one at 160. I think that was a good deal.

 

[DPittman]

So since others were buying chucks I just got a new one - 5C.

Reviews are good:

Amazon

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

I paid 160 with tax and prime delivery.

As soon as I paid price jumped to... 301 plus tax... got to love Amazon surge algorithm. Cheapest on ali are about 225 plus any taxes in Canada if any.

I was going to hope amazon does not do this and someone can get one at 160. I think that was a good deal.

Well I do not really "need" a 5c collet chuck as I have no 5c collets and am instead using a different system primarily because anytime I looked at them they were $$$. 160 bucks is a GOOD DEAL.

 

[PeterT]

Tom, what makes you certain your Chinese 5C collet chuck is exact same as the one Stefan reviewed? Kind of strange, what looks to be an oiler on his is a set screw? on yours. Is it a lubrication passage? Have you had it apart yet?

The important takeaway from video is he turned his adapter plate boss slightly undersize diameter to allow the chuck to float in order to first dial it in & then tighten the bolts. This isn't quite the same retention stability as 4 perpendicular set screws (Set-Tru or Tru-Turn or whatever name you want to apply) but seems to be working for him. I might do the fitting operation a bit different. First turn the boss to normal snug fit, bolt on the chuck, test runout. Maybe you got a lucky Tuesday model & it's bang on. If you have runout, then reduce the boss diameter to suit.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I just ordered and as I copied the link from my order I noticed evil Amazon doubled the price - I wanted others to have a deal - I guess one will have to wait a month or so before Amazon again decreases the price. When it was $300 I made ER40 chuck. So now I will have 2 in about 2 days.

I guess part of leaving it a bit loose is also about not perfect cheap Chinese collets - i.e. it may be perfect for one but not the other. Then again I am not that precise to check every collet - at least not yet. Agree to first do to size and see... my backing plates are usually plus minus about a thou or less - maybe errors cancel out not add.

What you are pointing to on the 2nd image from the left is a set screw for anti-rotation of the 5C - his chuck has the same screw as per video.

It could be a different Chinese chuck but I somehow doubt it - all previous chucks I got (like half a dozen) were more or less same make different model. This one is 3911-125 - which is apparently same catalog number as Bison (??)

On here you can see oiling plug same as on video https://ht-tools.en.made-in-china.c...5-D6-D8-Fixture-5c-Collet-Chuck-5c-Chuck.html

But of course I could be wrong and I get garbage - then it will run me under $10 to ship it back, or maybe even free if I complain with pictures and / or video. It also could be the same one he got but mine could be "bad batch". Its a bit of a lottery.

Obviously if it is as per video it is a smoking deal - despite me already having ER40 chuck I made - ER are not exactly designed for work holding through I never had an issue. One can say I just added another toy to the collection.

 

[Susquatch]

I just ordered and as I copied the link from my order I noticed evil Amazon doubled the price - I wanted others to have a deal - I guess one will have to wait a month or so before Amazon again decreases the price. When it was $300 I made ER40 chuck. So now I will have 2 in about 2 days.

I guess part of leaving it a bit loose is also about not perfect cheap Chinese collets - i.e. it may be perfect for one but not the other. Then again I am not that precise to check every collet - at least not yet. Agree to first do to size and see... my backing plates are usually plus minus about a thou or less - maybe errors cancel out not add.

What you are pointing to on the 2nd image from the left is a set screw for anti-rotation of the 5C - his chuck has the same screw as per video.

It could be a different Chinese chuck but I somehow doubt it - all previous chucks I got (like half a dozen) were more or less same make different model. This one is 3911-125 - which is apparently same catalog number as Bison (??)

On here you can see oiling plug same as on video https://ht-tools.en.made-in-china.c...5-D6-D8-Fixture-5c-Collet-Chuck-5c-Chuck.html

But of course I could be wrong and I get garbage - then it will run me under $10 to ship it back, or maybe even free if I complain with pictures and / or video. It also could be the same one he got but mine could be "bad batch". Its a bit of a lottery.

Obviously if it is as per video it is a smoking deal - despite me already having ER40 chuck I made - ER are not exactly designed for work holding through I never had an issue. One can say I just added another toy to the collection.

I LOVE my 5C Bison Chuck. As I have said before, this is my most often used chuck. It is the only chuck that lives on my lathe more than 50% of the time.

It is only used for work holding. It works almost perfectly for that purpose although I do have an assortment of pop can shims of various sizes that I regularly use to improve the fit of the individual Collets to whatever work I am holding. 5C Collets only have 3 slits in them so they don't hold a wide range of sizes very well without the shims.

I often use old bolts as a source of steel rod supply. I can usually either remove the heads or insert them in the collet from the rear before installing the collet and making the part. Sometimes I rough turn the bolt head before doing so.

While not perfect, these Collets will generally hold to +/- a thou and often better. If I carefully mark (or index) a part after turning, the collet will reliably return the part to within +/- 2 tenths.

You may not have a decent 5C set yet, but if I am reading your intentions correctly, you soon will. I bet you end up loving this chuck as much as I do!

Edit - make sure you rotate and evaluate the runout at each of the installation possibilities and then index the chuck so you always install it in the future at the best possibility.

 

[Mcgyver]

The advantage of a 4 jaw chuck is exactly that. It is NOT self centering. Self centering is seldom very precise. On the other hand, since each of the 4 jaws can be independently adjusted on 90 degree intervals, a four jaw chuck can be manually adjusted to whatever degree of precision your lathe and you are capable of.

Also, 4 independant (non self centering) jaws allow the user to center non-cylindrical imperfect parts with great precision.

Sort of but high levels of accuracy requires more than just that the jaws be independently adjustable. What you're paying for with a better quality chuck is that when the work is clamped in it, is it parallel to the lathe's axis - i.e. doesn't have any wobble. Its true any chuck can be dialed in to have less than tenth runout relatively easily.....however that is only in one plane. Get it perfect in one and then indicate 2" out and see how much run out you get. The amount may or may not matter for any particular job, but when striving for high accuracy it is material and has to dealt with, even with a high quality chuck. You'd expect it likely to be a bigger issue on a lower quality chuck.

Eliminating that required for really accurate work is a real pita. I've a good Pratt Burnerd but when you're trying to get it aligned to a tenth, its time for soft grips (copper), indicated in one plane, dial it in, move to another plane, indicate, tap tat tap....then repeat over and over. Furthermore, very often you don't have the option of indicating in a second plane and you're stuck relying on the chuck's accuracy that the bore or OD doesn't end up at an angle to where you wanted it to be

Just trying to make the point that quality in the four jaw is not as superfluous as it might seem if you're only thinking that concentricity in one plane is all that matters

 

[PeterT]

although I do have an assortment of pop can shims of various sizes that I regularly use to improve the fit of the individual Collets to whatever work I am holding. 5C Collets only have 3 slits in them so they don't hold a wide range of sizes very well without the shims.

Edit - make sure you rotate and evaluate the runout at each of the installation possibilities and then index the chuck so you always install it in the future at the best possibility.

I'm not quite sure I follow your shim advice. I think you've mentioned this before. Lets explore. If you mean for example your set is coarser increment between progressive sizes, say 1/16" vs 1/32" set & you are shimming between part OD & collet ID diametrically? No harm in that. Maybe a slight disadvantage in more slip surfaces. As long you are not loading the collet outside its maximum nominal capacity. That's not good for them. I've heard that 5C can loose runout accuracy towards the collapsed end of its range & also potentially harder on them cranking down like that. So maybe this is what you are doing? I can see this as a cost saving measure if you don't have or want to buy 1/32" set (or their nominal metric equivalent). I hummed & hawed & ultimately opted for 1/32". From that standpoint I don't see any benefit to shims, they clamp well within the TIR accuracy of the collet.

Or do you mean you are differentially shimming each jaw, like different thickness? If so, I'd be a bit concerned abut distortion.

In terms of rotating the chuck to a sweet spot on the (D1-x) spindle, that is always good practice on any centering chuck. My original Bison 5C chuck was out 1.0-1.5 thou regardless. It was an integrated backplate style so unfortunately that's kind of the end of the rope without some kind of more serious mod. I had an opportunity to get a Set-Tru at a great price so did the flip-a-roo. To my way of thinking its the best way to go. You can dial concentricity independently. But they also cost more :/

 

[Tom Kitta]

Sort of but high levels of accuracy requires more than just that the jaws be independently adjustable. What you're paying for with a better quality chuck is that when the work is clamped in it, is it parallel to the lathe's axis - i.e. doesn't have any wobble. Its true any chuck can be dialed in to have less than tenth runout relatively easily.....however that is only in one plane. Get it perfect in one and then indicate 2" out and see how much run out you get. The amount may or may not matter for any particular job, but when striving for high accuracy it is material and has to dealt with, even with a high quality chuck. You'd expect it likely to be a bigger issue on a lower quality chuck.

Eliminating that required for really accurate work is a real pita. I've a good Pratt Burnerd but when you're trying to get it aligned to a tenth, its time for soft grips (copper), indicated in one plane, dial it in, move to another plane, indicate, tap tat tap....then repeat over and over. Furthermore, very often you don't have the option of indicating in a second plane and you're stuck relying on the chuck's accuracy that the bore or OD doesn't end up at an angle to where you wanted it to be

Just trying to make the point that quality in the four jaw is not as superfluous as it might seem if you're only thinking that concentricity in one plane is all that matters

And hence I grind every Chinese 4 jaw. At least when ground and when jaws are stamped with 1-4 it is of some use. Out of the box all of them were ... not of much use 2" from the chuck. Even when ground they are not that "great".
Hence why it is a better idea to get quality 4-jaw then quality 3-jaw - if you can only afford one good chuck. With 3-jaw you expect it is not accurate - with 4 jaw you want accuracy.

Even if you set your work in two planes (places) right to your desired accuracy there is no guarantee that a bit harder pressure of the cutter will not upset the system.

Even when ground poor quality chuck will have deviations outside of the diameter it was ground with - with diameter it was ground I expect about a thou plus minus at 4". Without grinding I had as much as plus minus 5 thou - i.e. part visually wobbled in the 4 jaw (!).

 

[Susquatch]

@Mcgyver & @PeterT

Look, I personally understand everything both of you have said and I totally agree. Unlike my novice level mill experience, I've been using a lathe for decades.

What I am trying to do here is to keep it simple and straightforward for two members who say they are relatively new to using a lathe in one case and using collets in the other. Both appear to be on a relatively low budget. I really don't think we should complicate things any more than necessary for them.

As I read their questions,

The jaws are independent, and the 120 and 240 offsets will miss where the jaws are. I will be taking it apart, but as it is not self-centring (which seems to negate the 4 jaw advantages) there is little inside.

I felt I should try to explain in simple words why a non-self centering chick is normally an advantage over a self centering one. He didn't understand that a non-scrolling 4 jaw was actually preferred over a scrolling 4 jaw for most users. Most new users are going to get a scrolling 3 jaw and non-scrolling independant 4 jaw with their first lathe and they are unlikely to spend the money for a really good set of chucks until much later in the life cycle of their hobby.

Similarly, @Tom Kitta pulled the trigger on a 5C Collet chuck but I got the impression he was concerned about the large size jump between the individual Collets but didn't want to buy a more comprehensive set just yet.

So I thought it worthwhile to reassure him about the value that I place on my collet chuck and also offered a simple way to expand the range of a starter collet set a bit with shims. Shims are not perfect, but for most jobs they work just fine until one can afford to get a full set.

Hope that helps explain where I was coming from.

 

[Tomc938]

He didn't understand that a non-scrolling 4 jaw was actually preferred over a scrolling 4 jaw for most users.

Just to clarify: I have no idea why someone would want a self-centring 4 jaw chuck. Why do they sell them? The self-centering "feature" negates what a 4 jaw is for. Even worse, grabbing a piece of round stock in a 4 jaw chuck likely leads to poor holding power as it is possible for 2 jaws to not make good contact with the part. I was just saying my chuck doesn't have any "innards" to worry about when drilling. It will be close, but not intersecting, any of the screws for the jaws. My "...which seems to negate the 4 jaw advantage" was an understatement to make the bigger point.

I do agree that your comments were helpful in reassuring people like me that for the time being I will be able to use the 4 jaw with some success. I envision using it to hold either square stock, or round stock, to form eccentrics or off centre holes. Most of this work will be close to the chuck, so that should minimize most lateral error to the point that my third rate machinist skills will result in greater error. (I know my limitations!)

 

[Tomc938]

So since others were buying chucks I just got a new one - 5C.

Reviews are good:

Amazon

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

I paid 160 with tax and prime delivery.

As soon as I paid price jumped to... 301 plus tax... got to love Amazon surge algorithm. Cheapest on ali are about 225 plus any taxes in Canada if any.

I was going to hope amazon does not do this and someone can get one at 160. I think that was a good deal.

Just for fun I looked on Amazon, and $161.00 would be my all-in price also. Amazon is weird. Gotta shop around.

 

[PeterT]

I guess its all about the job requirement. if you have a variety of square stock sizes that has to be turned down or bored or flipped & the other end done (within the accuracy limits of the stock & the chuck) that would sure save a whole lot of dialing in every single part insertion compared to an independent 4J. On round stock, internal or external, I guess it presents an added contact surface for grip, 2 short of a 6-jaw. I don't own a self center 4J myself.

 

[Susquatch]

Just to clarify: I have no idea why someone would want a self-centring 4 jaw chuck. Why do they sell them? The self-centering "feature" negates what a 4 jaw is for. Even worse, grabbing a piece of round stock in a 4 jaw chuck likely leads to poor holding power as it is possible for 2 jaws to not make good contact with the part. I was just saying my chuck doesn't have any "innards" to worry about when drilling. It will be close, but not intersecting, any of the screws for the jaws. My "...which seems to negate the 4 jaw advantage" was an understatement to make the bigger point.

I do agree that your comments were helpful in reassuring people like me that for the time being I will be able to use the 4 jaw with some success. I envision using it to hold either square stock, or round stock, to form eccentrics or off centre holes. Most of this work will be close to the chuck, so that should minimize most lateral error to the point that my third rate machinist skills will result in greater error. (I know my limitations!)

I'm glad you found my comments useful. I think you will find that your 3 jaw chuck lives on your lathe more often than the 4 jaw. In addition to centering square stock and making eccentrics, I also think you will discover the usefulness of the 4 jaw in improving the centering of round stock as your skills improve. As others have said, even the 4 jaw isn't perfect, but it has its place.

Most important of all, you sound like the kind of fellow who will LOVE your lathe and what you can all do with it. I will enjoy following you along your journey and I'm looking forward to your next questions. Have Fun!

 

[Susquatch]

Just for fun I looked on Amazon, and $161.00 would be my all-in price also. Amazon is weird. Gotta shop around.

& @Tom Kitta

I just looked too. The best I could get was $369. And even that would not fit my D1-5 lathe. Yet I'm pretty sure that I bought my D1-5 Bison 5C Collet chuck on Amazon 5 years ago or so.

This makes me really suspicious of how Amazon might be busy exploiting me.... My wife & I buy a lot on amazon. We like to buy local, but most things we need are just not available. Amazon saves us 2 hours of driving (there and back) to the big city. But maybe we shouldn't rely on them so much....

 

[Tom Kitta]

Yes amazon is not nice. This was my biggest purchase from them this year. Most of my purchases from them are... cat food. I usually prefer aliexpress (!!!) as Chinese are almost always cheaper then amazon - like 90% of the time. They are also cheaper then eBay with shipping from China. Amazon does a lot of other dirty stuff - like when they find out someone sells hot product on their platform they will undercut him to drive him out so they make the $$$. Amazon is very dirty company, not playing fair, abusing laws as much as they can etc. etc. etc.

 

[Tom O]

Cat food! My fox only gets the good stuff beef stroganoff, boneless pork cutlets with tatertots, meatloaf with au gratin potatoes with creamed corn, and if I’m in a hurry hotdogs.

 

[Tom Kitta]

Some cat food is far better then human food - I mean at $1 CAD+ for 40grams one would expect this to be top of the line chicken - I mean it works out to 25 CAD per kilo (!)

 

[PeterT]

Was just ordering something unrelated & the 5C came up in the 'suggested' list at $153 (Prime). Can't vouch for the seller or quality or any of that.

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

 

[DPittman]

Was just ordering something unrelated & the 5C came up in the 'suggested' list at $153 (Prime).

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

5C Tools Clamp Chuck Lathe Parts, 3911-125 Hardware Accessory Industrial Supplies High Accurancy, with a Chuck and Drill Key, for Lathes, Grinders : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

Yet there is still this one

5 Inch 5C Collet Chuck 5C Collet Lathe Chuck Complete Tools Durable High Accuracy 0.0006 TIR Accessories for Lathe Use : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

5 Inch 5C Collet Chuck 5C Collet Lathe Chuck Complete Tools Durable High Accuracy 0.0006 TIR Accessories for Lathe Use : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

www.amazon.ca

 

[PeterT]

Durable High Accuracy 0.0006 TIR Accessories for Lathe Use​

hmm.... to believe, or not to believe... that is the question