Webster I.C. Project.

[djberta]

I found the plans to the Webster IC 4 stroke engine and have started preplanning my build. Some changes I’m looking at making come from others builds. Like ades on YouTube did some changes that are noteworthy. One of which is using a belt drive for the timing and moving the cam much closer to the valve.

I have the spark plug, tap which is an odd one at 10mm x 1.0. Spark board parts. 6v coil. Odds and ends of square and round materials for the build. Sadly I have no brass. Maybe use aluminum for some of those parts. The plans are metric, but obviously based on inches. Lots of off mm’s like 25.4mm and the hardware is all standard. If anyone has inch plans I would be interested.

Has anyone built one? Any recommendations?

When I say preplanning, I’m thinking this may start towards winter. My mill is still in pieces on the floor, both my lathes are also pulled apart for the move which we are now just finishing. Mid move the city of Leduc tore up the street in either direction for two blocks to install a new storm drain. They just finished paving on Monday. We have no back alley. Literally moving by crossing our neighbours lawns. The end is near, which is good. I can finally get back to making things.

 

[PeterT]

Look forward to your build. It seems to be a popular engine. Ive seen it on YouTube but also some model engineering forums so would pay to check there. Lots to learn from others.

I just so happened to be looking into spark ignition systems for my next build so take this as FWIW. Seems like a lot of the prior models that used biggish coils, custom boards, biggish batteries etc. are changing over to CDI modules designed for models. They are much smaller footprint & can keep up to multi-cylinder count & RPM demands power wise with small batteries. There were some custom module makers I was aware of, but some guys are retrofitting these ones from China. They make them for their own engine 'kits' which are kind of $$ screwdriver assembly desktop engines, but they also offer the components themselves. https://www.enginediy.com/search?type=article,page,product&q=CDI*

In terms of spark plugs, same supplier (and many on AliExpress & hobby distributers) offer very nice scale-ish plus in 1/4-32 format so you don't have to use those big plugs. I have seen some custom builds like V8's where people made their own plugs down as low as 10-32 & even 8-32 threads using Corian or machinable ceramic insulators, but that's kind of hard core

The RCEXL type modules you see on RC airplane gasoline engines are another way to go. You can get those in minimum 1/4-32 plugs or larger. These gave grounded sheathed cables because of potential interference issues. They also have hard mapped RPM sensing advance/retard which might be an advantage for the most part on a single cylinder. Makes it easier to start & generally runs better at higher rpm although I don't know much about Webster specifically. They work with a magnet on the crankshaft output & hall sensor. Generally made for 2-stroke but on a 4-stroke, just produces a harmless waste spark on the INT/EXH RDC transition stroke.

You wont have a distributor to contend with which is easier yet, but just know that these same Chinese CD modules are being used on self made distributers which can get quite small (scale). I replicated this design from a guy who built a 1/4 scale V8. Distributer body is ~ 1" diameter which is one of the smallest I've seen (before wayward spark issues start to creep in). It has a disc with magnets (green) which is picked up by hall sensor (pink) and then aligns to conductor rotor (blue), all air gap. The Chinese CD has no dwell/advance which is actually desirable. My goal is to make a bench mockup. Thereis also a reputable USA made module I'm checking into but more expensive.

 

[djberta]

PeterT, great info. So far I’m just working off some of the YouTube builds, the model engine forum builds. They run from simple to super complex. The plans I have which I do not think are the only ones. Has a set of breaker contacts a cap and coil. Like a 60s ignition system. What I was shooting for is using the tim6 ignition board and an rv coil. I love the idea of a distributor. That tho will be much later as the single cylinder is all I am looking at currently. The specs on the engine show 1800rpm as the max with most of the videos I’ve watched getting at most up ton1600rpm.

I saw on one of builds for a very complex 4 cylinder the guy made tiny spark plugs, this to me is on an extreme level. Like some of the builds where guys are building clock like movements. IE some of the guys making fishing reels, some really amazing precision. For me at this time, i look at the entire build as a chance to make a running engine.

Most of my experience with hobby machining has been making project parts like bushings, shafts, pin drivers and all the new guy lathe and mill upgrades we all seem to believe we have to make.

I will look in to the cdi link you posted as the are for sure the smallest option by far.

 

[djberta]

Sorry I should add I am using the plans and YouTube video changes and updates.

 

[PeterT]

I forgot to mention the RCEXL modules with braided (grounded) harnesses have a metal boot that engages the plug. The boots also come in different orientations; straight (180-deg) 120-deg & 90-deg. I learned the hard way that you should ideally order the right one from the get-go because its not quite as simple as snipping the plug off & swapping with another. There is a little inline resistor nestled within the boot/cable area that needs to be re-soldered & then boot re-clasped. Swapping is doable but kind of a PITA. This isn't really common knowledge but there is internet info. Your plug depth & head orientation may dictate the style of boot, but I suspect the Webster is pretty forgiving if it had the bigger plug. Also, the CD modules are cast in epoxy - no looky-looky (or repair).

I would have said for a single cylinder the CDI is the way to go. But now that you mention 1800 RPM max I would say delve into that further. I kept this chart from a guy who somehow back-engineered the timing advance/retard curve which is hard-mapped on the CDI. You cannot alter it. I suppose its kind of intended for the typical 4000 RPM+ types of engines. OTOH it may not make a hill of beans difference put-putting away. Ask some questions on the model engineering forums where guys have built the engine & have some better info. I bet most used the coil & TIM so if you are familiar or game for it & have the hardware, that's another option.

The 2 main sites I frequent

Home Model Engine Machinist Forum

Home model engine machinists & makers forum. Model engine making forums for engine plans, castings, CAD, CNC designs, lathe, Stirling, boilers & steam.

www.homemodelenginemachinist.com

Model Engine Maker - Index

Model Engine Maker - Index

www.modelenginemaker.com

 

[djberta]

I have found the original Webster plans in inch’s. The plans most readily available are metric conversion from the inch ones. I had to follow a post using the way back machine to get them.

Ignition parts are coming together. I should be able to put them together when needed.

Working on getting my lathe and mill in to my basement. Once they are in and set up I can start building parts.

 

[Megar arc 5040dd]

I am hoping to do a webster engine this winter also, though I said that last winter too. But this time I mean it haha.

 

[djberta]

I have both sets of original drawings now if you need a set. They are all public now but the inch ones I had to use the wayback to get them. If you haven’t seen, there are some updated ones as well. The iron Webster is good. Jan Ridders site has a pile of cool plans as well. One of Jan’s plans is for a Vapor carb and using a modded electronic bbq igniter for spark. His sort of vertical take on the Webster uses a glass cylinder which is a bit more then I’m looking for at this time.

I’m going to try and not deviate much from the plans, I can have problems with feature creep, which stretches my projects in to oblivion.

Trying to get my lathes, mill, shaper tool room back together. Setting up my shelving and the shelves on the one wall are half inch to long, almost want to cut out the drywall. Now I have to try and figure out a new layout. Downsizing kind of sucks.

 

[PeterT]

I had to refresh my memory of what the Webster engine looked like. It appears to be a popular engine project,

You may have already saved some favorite links like attached example. But FWIW, one of the things I do is print a build post to a PDF if it's something I want to preserve or refer to later. That way you have the whole article c/w pictures in one document. Therefore you can bookmark pages of interest, or do a Ctrl-F search on a keyword like 'valve' or whatever. Website forums vary in their length of how many posts constituent a chunk or chapter or whatever they call it. For example this has about 6 chunks of maybe 15 posts per chunk. Probably depends on length of post verbiage & attached pics etc. So typically each chunk would be a single Ctrl-P pdf 'print'. You can decide after that if you want to binder them together into a single pdf or leave them as individual outputs. Look forward to the chips.

Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine

Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine

www.modelenginemaker.com

 

[Susquatch]

one of the things I do is print a build post to a PDF if it's something I want to preserve or refer to later.

The things you learn on here..... What a great idea! Don't know why I never thought of printing stuff like that to a PDF.

I used to save websites to a file folder on my hard disk. Then one could use a browser to look at them but you didn't have to worry about losing them or having to go on-line.

I stopped doing that about 15 years ago when my main internet viewer became my phone.

Now I email web links to myself and then collect those email messages in subject matter email folders.

 

[PeterT]

Some websites don't lend themselves to 'printing' quite as well as others so you have to kind of experiment. Most of the issues are dealing with images. I like it when the PDF output shows a thumbnail so you can some idea, & when you click on it it hot links to that exact position on the website, which saves a lot of futzing around going to a saved link & then searching. Also, because its a post, you get the whole enchilada - headers, footers, ad blurbs, potentially undesirable side conversations. I suppose that's where an 'editor' would enter the picture if you really wanted to clean things up & that's kind of a different software discussion. Generally I don't bother but that's only because most of the freebie PDF print apps allow you to set bookmarks & they come OCR-d so you can keyword search.

One of the things that can put a wrench in the works is hosted pictures (as we recently discovered). If there are changes (the worst example being Photobucket debacle) there is nothing you can do. Some websites have a nice feature like 'view attachments' which shows only the pics & none of the verbiage. I find this useful. And that's the other reason for making a personal copy. Entire websites can go bye-bye or content gets lost.

Sorry for transgression, back to Webster building!

 

[Megar arc 5040dd]

I have both sets of original drawings now if you need a set. They are all public now but the inch ones I had to use the wayback to get them. If you haven’t seen, there are some updated ones as well. The iron Webster is good. Jan Ridders site has a pile of cool plans as well. One of Jan’s plans is for a Vapor carb and using a modded electronic bbq igniter for spark. His sort of vertical take on the Webster uses a glass cylinder which is a bit more then I’m looking for at this time.

I’m going to try and not deviate much from the plans, I can have problems with feature creep, which stretches my projects in to oblivion.

Trying to get my lathes, mill, shaper tool room back together. Setting up my shelving and the shelves on the one wall are half inch to long, almost want to cut out the drywall. Now I have to try and figure out a new layout. Downsizing kind of sucks.

The set I have is imperial. I downloaded them about 4 years ago I think. I was just looking them over and realized on the drawing it appears the timing gears are a purchased item. I was surprised by that since it is a machining project and I thought the gears would be a fun part of the project. I Think the hardest part will be sourcing all the materials and not breaking the bank.

 

[Susquatch]

One of the things that can put a wrench in the works is hosted pictures (as we recently discovered).

This is where saving a disk version of the web pages starts to shine. This process saves everything to disk.

That doesn't diminish the value of your pdf approach.

 

[djberta]

Hi Peter t. Yes I had that one bookmarked but not saved. I have saved webpages. But I have not printed them to pdf. I will have to do that.

 

[djberta]

The set I have is imperial. I downloaded them about 4 years ago I think. I was just looking them over and realized on the drawing it appears the timing gears are a purchased item. I was surprised by that since it is a machining project and I thought the gears would be a fun part of the project. I Think the hardest part will be sourcing all the materials and not breaking the bank.

This for sure is an issue. I don’t want the project to get to costly. I’m looking to make the gears or follow some of the mods and use a belt drive. Ridders has a version that uses a rotary valve. But like I said I’m hoping to follow the design as close as I can.

1 mod for sure I am doing is the counter balance crank shaft as it’s a simple mod but it helps with vibration.

I have the ignition system pretty much sorted. I have all the aluminum I need. A piece of silver steel for the valves and such. I have most of the materials. I need cast iron for the cylinder and some brass for some of the parts.

 

[djberta]

I had to refresh my memory of what the Webster engine looked like. It appears to be a popular engine project,

You may have already saved some favorite links like attached example. But FWIW, one of the things I do is print a build post to a PDF if it's something I want to preserve or refer to later. That way you have the whole article c/w pictures in one document. Therefore you can bookmark pages of interest, or do a Ctrl-F search on a keyword like 'valve' or whatever. Website forums vary in their length of how many posts constituent a chunk or chapter or whatever they call it. For example this has about 6 chunks of maybe 15 posts per chunk. Probably depends on length of post verbiage & attached pics etc. So typically each chunk would be a single Ctrl-P pdf 'print'. You can decide after that if you want to binder them together into a single pdf or leave them as individual outputs. Look forward to the chips.

View attachment 51687

Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine

Webster I/C Engine - Mike's 5th Engine

www.modelenginemaker.com

Hi Peter. I am very interested in saving forum threeads to pdf as you posted. I went through some of my saved webpages and they did not work. They had errors in them. Either originally or over time. Also I noticed that saved html's redirect to the page information online.

I have tried saving the same web forum thread you posted, but I could not save more then the 1 page to the pdf. Can you give me an idea of how to save the entire thread?

 

[PeterT]

Yes each 'web page' would be its own PDF, so I just number them 1,2,3... as I save them into separate files. I just use Ctrl-P (Print) on Win-10 pc & specify PDF as the printer.
I'm not sure if Adobe reader (the free one) can combine individual PDFs into a single document, what they call a binder. I have access to other tools for that.

I tried the linked article just for comparison. Looks like web page 1 is 38 PDF pages in length.

 

[djberta]

Thanks for the reply. I was thinking they would all be in one pdf. Just my assumption or possibly wishful thinking. I will save them with each page. Pictures are for sure an issue trying to save. So is some of the pop ups seem to really interfere.

 

[Susquatch]

I was thinking they would all be in one pdf.

They can be. It's just that you have to put them together afterward manually. Also, as far as I know, the standard freebee acrobat program won't do that.

 

[djberta]

Slowly getting material together. Great thanks to the members helping with that. I am working on getting my mill back together after the move. As others have said it is much easier to move things with gravity then against it.