Thinking About Acquiring a Mill

[Tecnico]

I mentioned this in my noob thread, I've got the bug to have a mill so it's time to start asking questions. I'm thinking about something that's a good step above what I can do on my Myford with the vertical slide so I think it has to be something more than the small Busy Bee offerings and from the gist of the discussion here I think I can afford a full size "experienced" mill provided I can be in the right place at the right time.

So, questions. I have an out building fed to a pony panel with 220V from my main panel on a dual 50 amp breaker so the first question is whether that's likely enough to feed a 3 phase mill running off a VFD. HP limits? What size of breaker would be likely?

The second question is about something that has popped up on the market. The mill is labelled Drummond but it looks like an AVEMAX unit, maybe a 450VS (VSD, 10 x 50) judging from the photo. I know nothing about them and I see another mill that looks like the family badged Konida so it's not clear who the actual manufacturer is. Does anyone here have any experience with these? Looks like they are Taiwanese and AVEMAX is at milling.com.tw.

Let's see if I can attach an image to this posting.....looks like I have succeeded!

So, any thought about how to price this machine given what it is and that it is covered in powder/sand or bodyfill or who knows what? Any other interesting observations?

And the journey begins.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[kylemp]

50a is LOTS on something like a vfd. Because that acts as a soft start ramping up the motor speed the current draw doesn't spike when it starts up. I run a 15hp phase converter which was starting a 10hp lathe on a 50a and have never tripped a breaker.

As for the mill, depends on where you are and if the ways are wiped out on it. It looks like a good machine - mechanically variable speed, power feed on the x and the quill, a dro, 30 taper.. As long as everything works ok I'd think 3500 to 5k would be reasonable, again assuming the ways aren't wiped out. The fact that's you're somewhere east could mean substantially less in pricing too as there's a lot more machines out there than in western Canada. Just make sure that everything functions correctly, if it doesn't then start dropping the price or walk away.

Also make sure that the motor is 208v, since you're out east there's a lot more 575v machines which you can't run through a vfd I don't think.. I had a 575v mill and had to run an rpc and transformer.

In general for knee mills I wouldn't worry about the brand much. They're more or less all the same, I'd typically just assume they're all made in Taiwan (which is totally fine), the only exception to that is if it's something from eastern Europe in which case it'll be heavier and better quality.

 

[Tecnico]

Kyle

Thanks for your comments.

I guess I should clarify a bit on the east, I'm east of the Quebec border so I'm not in the plentiful market of southern Ontario (central Canada from where I'm viewing LOL!). Right now the only machines of note near me are this one and a Bridgeport Tracer. I've read up a bit on converting a tracer and it looks like more than I want to jump into right now and with questionable resale value. The photo of that machine didn't inspire me either.

Is your pricing estimate based on the machine looking neglected as the picture shows or just a general thought on machines of that vintage and origins?

While I'm at it, I've been doing a bit of reading and this machine type appears to be equipped as "NST#30/R8 (Opt. NST#40)". I'm not sure if that means any of those are options or the machine was shipped with 30 plus R8 adapters, any insight?

I'm used to seeing R8 tooling, it seems quite popular, is #30 similar in cost and availability or is it a toss up if you have to buy anyhow? Any down sides? I presume you can tell from the photo that it's 30?

Cheers,

Dave

 

[kylemp]

My pricing is based just off of general knowledge, there's always some flex depending on how the machine actually looks in person..
The nst 30 is the spindle taper, I'm quite certain that machine is a 30 taper as 40 taper is quite a bit larger. If it's 40 taper that's even better but it's unlikely. It'll be one of those two, you can see the drive dogs in the picture.

R8 is by far the most common for knee mills and readily available, but isn't as strong as a 30 or 40 taper (this generally doesn't matter for that type of machine). It also has the downside of needing a bit more height to change tools because R8 is pretty long, and most collets you'll find are R8 meaning they don't repeat. You can get R8 to Er collet setups or rigid holders, doesn't generally matter to be honest. I wouldn't worry about what the spindle taper is, you'll make do with whatever it is I'm sure. As for cost of tooling, it's kind of a toss up.. 30 taper will be more in some aspects, but more flexible in others probably. If you watch auctions you'll see more taper tooling as shops don't really use R8.

 

[Tom Kitta]

I can rough price that mill if you give me a location of it. It looks like R8. Could be 30 but definitely looks to skinny for 40.

With 50amp breaker I run 15hp rotary and started 10hp lathe. Now I have 60amps and runs great.

In AB machine as per picture if in good condition but not great would be at least 5000 CAD.

If using VFD 50amps is plenty. Take amp load of the mill multiply by 2 and pick larger breaker size. It probably will be ether 20 or 30.

 

[Tecnico]

I can rough price that mill if you give me a location of it. It looks like R8. Could be 30 but definitely looks to skinny for 40.

Hi Tom

The mill is in a rural community in the Maritimes, not sure what that means for what it'd sell for. I haven't seen it in person, I'm trying to figure out how to buy one right now!

Cheers,

Dave

 

[YYCHM]

Hi Tom

The mill is in a rural community in the Maritimes, not sure what that means for what it'd sell for. I haven't seen it in person, I'm trying to figure out how to buy one right now!

Cheers,

Dave

Boy.... that's vague.... How did you find it, and get a pic of it?

 

[John Conroy]

This company in Quebec City seems to have a few decent looking mills that should be easier to access than one in the Maritimes

Kijiji Canada

"View Machinerie Soudogaz Profile on Kijiji Canada - Visit Kijiji Classifieds to buy or sell, new & used items. Explore Canadas #1 Classifieds."

www.kijiji.ca

 

[Susquatch]

I mentioned this in my noob thread, I've got the bug to have a mill so it's time to start asking questions. I'm thinking about something that's a good step above what I can do on my Myford with the vertical slide so I think it has to be something more than the small Busy Bee offerings and from the gist of the discussion here I think I can afford a full size "experienced" mill provided I can be in the right place at the right time.

So, questions. I have an out building fed to a pony panel with 220V from my main panel on a dual 50 amp breaker so the first question is whether that's likely enough to feed a 3 phase mill running off a VFD. HP limits? What size of breaker would be likely?

The second question is about something that has popped up on the market. The mill is labelled Drummond but it looks like an AVEMAX unit, maybe a 450VS (VSD, 10 x 50) judging from the photo. I know nothing about them and I see another mill that looks like the family badged Konida so it's not clear who the actual manufacturer is. Does anyone here have any experience with these? Looks like they are Taiwanese and AVEMAX is at milling.com.tw.

Let's see if I can attach an image to this posting.....looks like I have succeeded!

So, any thought about how to price this machine given what it is and that it is covered in powder/sand or bodyfill or who knows what? Any other interesting observations?

And the journey begins.

Thanks,

Dave

I've just been where you are. Although I've been milling with small stuff for many years, it was never anything fancy. I've just recently moved up to Knee Mill in the last 6 months. So I'm still a mill noob.

I totally agree with others. 50A 220 is PLENTY for damn near anything you might find for home shop use. A VFD will handle converting to 3ph just fine.

I swapped out a 440V to 220 so I could avoid the need for step up hardware. A used 220V motor will be from 50 to 200. A new 2HP motor will cost you between 200 and up, but then you can get a VFD rated motor.

The biggest issues around swapping Motors are the shaft diameter and length. Pulleys and sheaves are not cheap so its best to find a motor that swaps out directly if you can. If not, plan to add dollars for a step up transformer for the existing motor.

Although that spindle is not R8, and bigger spindles have their advantages, I am quite happy with my R8. Tools for it are available everywhere at very reasonable prices. If at all possible I'd try to find R8 just so you can run with the high volume pricing advantage for tooling. But again, that's noob advice.

 

[Tecnico]

Hi Folks

Morning catch up:

Craig, having seen the discussion here in the forum about how quickly a good deal is scooped up I'm not wanting to shine a big light on where it is although I suppose a few minutes Googling would find it like I did. Hope that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, no harm intended.

John, thanks for the link, if my S.O. was still on assignment in QC that'd be a good lead, although with shipping??

Susquatch, Your posts on finding a mill and getting up to speed have inspired my efforts, thanks. WRT the motor issue, is it likely that the VSD application motor would have any special fitment that wouldn't be covered in a normal NEMA frame spec.? I don't have info but the spec. sheet for a mill that looks like it could be the machine I'm looking at claims 3 HP for the motor so I'm guessing higher voltage but that's only a guess.


UPDATE:

I guess conventional wisdom is correct, I just checked the listing and the mill has been sold! It was up about a week. Don't know what it went for but I saw an auction listing for a similar machine that went for under $3k US and it was a lot cleaner looking, for the one I was looking at the ask was $5k CDN.

OK, so here's the scoop, the mill was in a small community near Moncton NB which is about 3 hours from me, near Halifax.

Well, back to the drawing board but this effort wasn't wasted, it helped me start figuring out how to buy when something else pops up. Thanks to everyone that responded to my posts.

I suppose the two headed Bridgeport beast including 2 VSD heads might still be there at $2k LOL!

Oh, one more question for everyone, I had a rough sense from reading the forum that you've been able to buy a decent knee mill (Bridgeport/clone) with some repair needed in the $2 - 3k range, is that accurate?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[Mcgyver]

Yes, need a mill!

So here is some counter intuitive advice....considering paying as much as possible for a mill. ok, not really, but what I mean is (location aside) price is function of the 1) quality level of the machine, 2) its condition (wear, abuse etc) and 3) and how much tooling comes with it. There is no answere to "whats this machine worth" with without really taking a good look at 2 & 3. Wear is very timeconsuming and expensive to correct for, and the the only way to get lots of good quality tooling inexpensively is if it comes with the mill.

Pushing for as much as you can get in all three categories today will seem an amazing bargain, best money every spent kind of thing, over the years as you get great and convenient performance out of it.

Your power as Sasquatch says is more than adequate. I run a 10hp RPC off a 220 40 amp breaker it handles the in rush current. In Canada your mill will likely be 220V or 600V or possibly 220/440. I would not let that influence me (instead concentrating on items 1-3). I also wouldn't plan on changing motors as often the motors on mills have weird housing and can't replaced easily with any standard NEMA frame. However there is always an electrical way to make it work and with low cost VFD's, its easier than ever. If 600v, its not difficult (220-600V transformers are on kijiji) to step to 600 before the VFD....although 600V vfds are more expensive (not the same abundance of low cost offshore models) If its hooked up to 440 (American), its very often 220/440 ( i.e. wye and delta) and can be readily hooked up to 220 1P (via a VFD of course).

 

[Susquatch]

Craig, having seen the discussion here in the forum about how quickly a good deal is scooped up I'm not wanting to shine a big light on where it is although I suppose a few minutes Googling would find it like I did. Hope that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way, no harm intended.

From what I have seen, I believe there is considerable honour among the members. Ya, maybe there is a guy or two that you can't trust but they show their colours pretty fast. Speaking just for myself, I'd have zero worries about anybody scooping a brand new mill worth 20 grand and selling for 200 out from under me. The members might argue and agree to disagree, but in my experience, they don't screw each other. Instead they bend over backwards to help each other. But then again, any body who did would be weeded out pretty quickly.

WRT the motor issue, is it likely that the VSD application motor would have any special fitment that wouldn't be covered in a normal NEMA frame spec.? I don't have info but the spec. sheet for a mill that looks like it could be the machine I'm looking at claims 3 HP for the motor so I'm guessing higher voltage

I think frame is not relevant to the VFD issue.

Oh, one more question for everyone, I had a rough sense from reading the forum that you've been able to buy a decent knee mill (Bridgeport/clone) with some repair needed in the $2 - 3k range, is that accurate?

I'd say more like 1.5 to 5k. All depending on condition and how desperate the seller is.

I agree with @Mcgyver on all other counts.

 

[Mcgyver]

From what I have seen, I believe there is considerable honour among the members. Y

I agree. Its also a fairly low key forum, I doubt thousands are seeing it.

....but

There is the potential for awkward situations if member A is already pursing it quietly and B mentions they going after it? What do you then? You might have been first to pursue it, but will potentially look like a scoundrel if B posts it but A subsequently comes home with. I like discretion in commercial affairs.

It sort of ties in noting market deals - same dynamic in that mentioning it tips off a lot non members. I've in the past on other forums I've been rather opposed to posting things for sale when you're not a stakeholder. There is every bit as good a chance as you'll mess up a member up who is quietly pursuing the deal (and has being diligently looking for months) as there is you helping a member who wasn't paying attention or looking. imo tie goes to guy already putting the effort in. In addition, on some forums, there might be 25 members online but 150 lurking...and its the same 25 members but the lurkers churn. You're interfering with the market advertising it to 100's or 1000's that aren't part of the community and wouldn't have otherwise heard of the ad.

It also creates a lot of noise that messes up the buy side. I was chasing a lathe once. Mid pursuit, it came up on another forum. All of sudden several people email the vendor and he tells me so, thinks he's got the hot offering witjh so many interested parties. Turns out in forum discussions months later I knew 2 or 3 of them; they are foreign and the closest was 600 miles away. They weren't going to buy it, they were just bored and wasting time....meanwhile I think it cost me money because it influenced the seller's perception.

I don't think its much of an issue here (and I've done it) because its a smaller a fairly tight knit group. Still.....I'd make the "spotted deals" invisible to anyone with less than 25 or 50 posts or not signed in, in other words if you're not trying to be part of community you don't get access to it.

 

[Janger]

I agree. Its also a fairly low key forum, I doubt thousands are seeing it.

....but

There is the potential for awkward situations if member A is already pursing it quietly and B mentions they going after it? What do you then? You might have been first to pursue it, but will potentially look like a scoundrel if B posts it but A subsequently comes home with. I like discretion in commercial affairs.

It sort of ties in noting market deals - same dynamic in that mentioning it tips off a lot non members. I've in the past on other forums I've been rather opposed to posting things for sale when you're not a stakeholder. There is every bit as good a chance as you'll mess up a member up who is quietly pursuing the deal (and has being diligently looking for months) as there is you helping a member who wasn't paying attention or looking. imo tie goes to guy already putting the effort in. In addition, on some forums, there might be 25 members online but 150 lurking...and its the same 25 members but the lurkers churn. You're interfering with the market advertising it to 100's or 1000's that aren't part of the community and wouldn't have otherwise heard of the ad.

It also creates a lot of noise that messes up the buy side. I was chasing a lathe once. Mid pursuit, it came up on another forum. All of sudden several people email the vendor and he tells me so, thinks he's got the hot offering witjh so many interested parties. Turns out in forum discussions months later I knew 2 or 3 of them; they are foreign and the closest was 600 miles away. They weren't going to buy it, they were just bored and wasting time....meanwhile I think it cost me money because it influenced the seller's perception.

I don't think its much of an issue here (and I've done it) because its a smaller a fairly tight knit group. Still.....I'd make the "spotted deals" invisible to anyone with less than 25 or 50 posts or not signed in, in other words if you're not trying to be part of community you don't get access to it.

@Alexander @Jwest7788
Some interesting perspective here guys. Let’s discuss at the next admin meeting. Thanks @Mcgyver

 

[Brent H]

Where do you live close to @Tecnico? Halifax? If you are close there I will check on a lead for a few machines for you - need a lathe?

Anyway for the Milling machines: Most you will see will be a Bridgeport or knock off - that means "typically" R8 spindle and 1.5 to 2 Hp. If you can get one that is 220/440 3 phase - easy to drive with a VFD and 220 x 15 amp power supply. I think my mill draws about 3 to 4 amps. The older pully drive mills are easier to convert to a new single phase motor or 220 three phase - except you have to watch shaft length. There are ways around that.

Larger mills with 3 Hp motors will typically have a 30, 40 or 50 taper depending on the size and application. My mill has a 30 taper. Tooling is not as available as the R8 counterparts but that is overcome with a good collet holder(s) and shopping kijiji and getting lucky on a few e-bay purchases. Finding a mill with an included vise, tooling etc - pounce fast as people buy them things just for parts.

For the mills and lathes - timing can be of the essence. Anything I post in the member spotted deals is something that I am not going to buy but hope someone can pop on and nab it. I did buy Miss Metric the lathe as she was sitting lonely for quite a while and it worked out. I usually will pm or text a member if I spot something and they are on the hunt....seems reasonable nice to do

 

[Susquatch]

@Alexander @Jwest7788
Some interesting perspective here guys. Let’s discuss at the next admin meeting. Thanks @Mcgyver

Hey @Janger, some great points are being made here. Lots of things I didn't consider.

I will say that I have developed a lot of trust for the more active members, but who knows who is all out there just lurking. And I agree with the point about who was really first.

Perhaps we need a "equipment wanted" group that members can use to PM when they find things. The posts can be deleted as equipment is acquired. I dunno. Like you, I'd just like to be able to help.

Back when I was looking for a mill and new to the group, I posted a few photos, and PMd a few members in the process of looking for advice. However, I kept the deal info itself to myself until after the buy was a done deal. I was successful in the several purchases and grateful for all the advice I got. I certainly love my mills! It would be nice to be able to help others be successful too.

 

[Tecnico]

Afternoon check in.

I spent the afternoon making pieces for my dial indicator mount/carriage stop, made some progress with a couple of setbacks. Time to put it down and thing about other things for a while.

I'm liking the warm & fuzzy feeling here about respecting deals & helping, hope I can hold up my end! For shopping I guess the lurkers are the biggest unknown.

Brent, I'm close to Halifax/Dartmouth, so anything around here is easily within reach. I'm not actively looking for a lathe but it'd be nice to have something bigger than the Myford but I am keeping my eye out for a mill.

Thanks to everyone for all the good feedback.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[Brent H]

@Tecnico - Let me see what might be lurking close to you...

 

[Six O Two]

John, thanks for the link, if my S.O. was still on assignment in QC that'd be a good lead, although with shipping??

For reference, four year ago I paid $1200 to freight a milling machine from Montreal to the BC Interior (which included a $100 upcharge for liftgate service which turned out to be wasted money). Western Canada can be a desert for old iron, so shipping from Eastern Canada made sense. Even at that price, it was still much cheaper than fighting to find something localish to me. It was definitely a bit of an adventure to actually get it delivered to me, but I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[Tecnico]

Hi Marco

Did you buy sight unseen? If you did then you're braver than I am or a calculated risk taker!

I guess that I'm early enough in the process that I haven't thought through all the details on how to do it.

I figured shipping a couple hundred miles for the one I was looking at would take a big bite out of $1k with loading & unloading rolled in let alone across three provinces.. I unfortunately don't have a setup worthy of offloading something that heavy so it would mean a boom truck or something like that on this end.

More to think about.

Oh, and what's lurking...well it's not at the shop we use at the office for machining, I spoke to their estimator about something today and what they have, they're using to make things for customers like us!

Cheers,

Dave