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Milling machines, what to buy/look for

F

farmer888

Active Member
Last year I bought a standard modern 11x20 lathe. Played around and made some pins and bushings etc, odd jobs nothing too complicated. I've been wanting a mill as well.
Seems there mostly large 3 phases 575 or quite small benchtop machines not much in between. I have 240v available and at the current time I would have the space for a Bridgeport type machine. Some "ex ello" and "first" machines come up for reasonable but 3 phase 575.. what's the best way to run them? get motor rewired for 240 and buy a vfd? Never used a vfd so something to figure out.

Or do I go with a smaller benchtop type mill? I don't have any projects really in mind, just random projects etc. Never used a mill so starting from scratch. Also should add.. Not set on a budget yet but Definitely under I'd say $3-3500.. hopefully getting enough tooling for that to get started too.
 
My $0.02:

If you have room, a knee mill is an improvement over the typical dovetail-column bench mill.

Avoid a round column mill-drill, moving the head and getting it aligned again is a major PITA.

Go for an R8 spindle, Morse taper adapters aren’t as common and tooling for the larger MT or ISO tapers are much more expensive.

Variable speed, either using a varispeed mechanism or a VFD. Changing belts is also a PITA. Your 240 single phase makes for easy adaption of a VFD and a three-phase motor.

Save some of your budget for a DRO setup and a good milling vise.

YMMV
 
Good posts above. You will want a suitable vise (lots of variation on what is suitable), end mills, good quality drills, maybe a set of larger drills (0.5" to 1"), drill chuck, tool holders (1/4, 3/8, 1/2) or if you are buying end mills from ali express then perhaps 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm. Or possibly instead of tool holders R8 collets for holding end mills. Imperial collets are generally not compatible with metric tooling & vise versa. Oh and parallels. You could make parallels for practice - not as nice as purchased ground parallels but perfectly usable.

This could be $1K easily. but you could spread it out just buy what you need as you need it.
 
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If you are willing to buy a 575V machine and plan to install a 240V 3 phase motor with a VFD for speed control you could get a bigger better machine for less money.
 
Thanks for the replies so far. Some excellent information in the guide, read and skimmed through it but will be looking closer later.

I may have some parallels.. grandfather was a machinist but passed before I was of age to really appreciate his knowledge.
I may have some endmills from him, have quite a collection of hss lathe tools and a set of micrometers up to 4 or 5 inch for lathe work and some other goodies which was nice to get started.

I'm ideally looking for a knee mill, Lot's of mill/drills available and maybe just fine to get started but I have the space for a full size so rather go that route.
 
One thing about 575V machines is to watch the peripheral equipment voltage requirements, like a coolant pump, how is it powered and with what voltage, or power feeds, lighting, DRO. If you can get somebody to help look at a used machine with you that can add peace of mind.
 
Janger said:
If you are willing to buy a 575V machine and plan to install a 240V 3 phase with a VFD for speed control you could get a bigger better machine for less money.
Click to expand...
That is an option i'm considering. What's involved? Is it a matter of just changing the "jumpers" cant remember the name to run on 230 or do most need to be swapped to a 230 motor? And what would a vf cost approx. for a Bridgeport etc machine?
 
I expect you would have to buy a new (used) 240V motor. and figure out the wiring. and likely change the motor mount. Might need a mill to adjust the mill. To add a VFD to control the motor is conceptually pretty simple. 240 V going to the VFD control. 3 wire 240V coming out and going to the 3 phase motor. So you need to decide - 240V single phase and use the speed control the mill already has (pulleys or what have you) OR 240V three phase and that requires a VFD. Costs would really vary. You might get a used motor $50 or a few hundred. a VFD quality brand $500 or far less for a Asia import. With either route the peripheral equipment power still has to be understood and dealt with. Lots of details for the 575V option - I don't want to mislead anyone. It would be a project. Maybe you want to just make chips and buy something that just works with the available power you have. There are VFD conversion threads on here if you look to get a better idea on that.
 
Providing 3 phase 575 is not difficult. If you can bide your time, it is not even very expensive. As usual, it depends on your situation and what your plans are. Start with sorting out the 3 phase.

If you have (planning to have) a few industrial type machines (meaning 3 phase machines and each one having special considerations - such as multi-speed motors, several motors on each machine), then it is worth it to sort out a 3 phase source - for most people that will mean some kind of phase converter. The ubiquitous Rotary Phase Converter (whether purchased or homemade - many great plans available to make your own) is where a lot of people start. Once you have 3 phase the machine purchase options really open up. Generally 3 phase machines are going to be commercial, or even industrial quality. Being 3 phase may scare off some buyers and improve your purchase price (3 phase is getting to be so easy that the power issue scares off very few buyers). Once you have the 3 phase 240V power, then you can easily keep plugging in 3 phase “200v” machines (could be anything from 208v to 240v - don’t sweat it, just plug them in, at worst you’ll need to reconnect a control transformer). I suggest getting a 3 phase panel and setting up a small distribution system. I have a few machines wired in, and then others that I run off a cord with twist lock plugs. 3 phase “200v” is an extremely common power supply on machine tools.

There is nothing wrong with swapping to single phase motors, or using a VFD to provide 3 phase - oft times these are not difficult conversions - but it is work, and you have to do it for every motor: sourcing a motor, mounting it, adapting the drive connection, gutting the old motor controls etc. with a phase converter, the efforts are external to the machine (the machine manufacturer probably put effort into a system that works well, it is nice to leave it alone).

I have 3 manual lathes. One of them (an 11x20 Standard Modern, would have been an easy one for a motor swap) I have powered off single phase via a VFD (to get the 3 phase) - main reason to do it was just for fun. My cost was zero because I had a surplus VFD, the machine came to me pretty well gutted - it came to me at very low cost as a project machine). The other two lathes are regular geared head machines - it turns out that I rarely use the little VFD SM lathe. The VFD is not enough of a benefit compared to the advantages that the other two lathes have (every machine is a bit different). IMO the VFD is a minor nice to have - it is not a game changer.

Now to get the 575v, simply connect a transformer. It may be referred to as a ”step down 575/240V” - but no matter. A transformer works fine in either direction. I paid $100 for a used 6.5kVA transformer from an electrical equipment rental shop. It may take a bit of looking /patience instead of buying new. However, once you have the 575v sorted out, the purchase premium improves in the buyer’s favour. I now have 5 machines that are 575v 3 phase - most other buyers get scared off because they don’t want the hassle of sorting out the power. Cross that bridge and there are some great opportunities.
 
Like this one maybe:

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It's 575V and $1900. Probably nobody wants it. The power feed looks like it's plug in to 120V - so that's easy. Coolant pump, not sure about that. The lamp. And it has nice variable speed control - no pulleys! - already so if you put a 240V single phase motor on it you're in business. You still need to figure out if it's clapped out with worn lead screws, bad bearings, or abused.
 
Chipper5783 said:
Providing 3 phase 575 is not difficult. If you can bide your time, it is not even very expensive. As usual, it depends on your situation and what your plans are. Start with sorting out the 3 phase.

If you have (planning to have) a few industrial type machines (meaning 3 phase machines and each one having special considerations - such as multi-speed motors, several motors on each machine), then it is worth it to sort out a 3 phase source - for most people that will mean some kind of phase converter. The ubiquitous Rotary Phase Converter (whether purchased or homemade - many great plans available to make your own) is where a lot of people start. Once you have 3 phase the machine purchase options really open up. Generally 3 phase machines are going to be commercial, or even industrial quality. Being 3 phase may scare off some buyers and improve your purchase price (3 phase is getting to be so easy that the power issue scares off very few buyers). Once you have the 3 phase 240V power, then you can easily keep plugging in 3 phase “200v” machines (could be anything from 208v to 240v - don’t sweat it, just plug them in, at worst you’ll need to reconnect a control transformer). I suggest getting a 3 phase panel and setting up a small distribution system. I have a few machines wired in, and then others that I run off a cord with twist lock plugs. 3 phase “200v” is an extremely common power supply on machine tools.

There is nothing wrong with swapping to single phase motors, or using a VFD to provide 3 phase - oft times these are not difficult conversions - but it is work, and you have to do it for every motor: sourcing a motor, mounting it, adapting the drive connection, gutting the old motor controls etc. with a phase converter, the efforts are external to the machine (the machine manufacturer probably put effort into a system that works well, it is nice to leave it alone).

I have 3 manual lathes. One of them (an 11x20 Standard Modern, would have been an easy one for a motor swap) I have powered off single phase via a VFD (to get the 3 phase) - main reason to do it was just for fun. My cost was zero because I had a surplus VFD, the machine came to me pretty well gutted - it came to me at very low cost as a project machine). The other two lathes are regular geared head machines - it turns out that I rarely use the little VFD SM lathe. The VFD is not enough of a benefit compared to the advantages that the other two lathes have (every machine is a bit different). IMO the VFD is a minor nice to have - it is not a game changer.

Now to get the 575v, simply connect a transformer. It may be referred to as a ”step down 575/240V” - but no matter. A transformer works fine in either direction. I paid $100 for a used 6.5kVA transformer from an electrical equipment rental shop. It may take a bit of looking /patience instead of buying new. However, once you have the 575v sorted out, the purchase premium improves in the buyer’s favour. I now have 5 machines that are 575v 3 phase - most other buyers get scared off because they don’t want the hassle of sorting out the power. Cross that bridge and there are some great opportunities.
Click to expand...
I didn't think of this solution. That's a good approach too especially if more equipment is in your future. Much easier than rewiring a machine and all the other powered bits required.
 
So I might look at a xlo 602 mill.. About a 2000lb machine, 9x36 table. It's 575 3 ph. I don't want a transformer or phase converter, I'd be ok going the vfd route though .
anyone know If the motor can be swapped out for a single phase 230? or Do I need to get a 3 ph 230 and use a vfd?
 
I wouldn't expect either route to be a problem. Given the above caveats in earlier posts. If the machine has variable speed of some sort already then swapping in a single phase motor is pretty simple. You might need a mill though to adapt a motor mount. A drill press could suffice - or if another member is nearby maybe they could help. post pictures of the xlo 602.
 
Excello's use an odd sized frame motor. Not easy to find on the used market. They can be rewound to 230v though. I bought one from Member Rauce earlier this year for my Excello. I'd been gathering bits and pieces for a home built rotary phase converter for a few years, but decided the price to just buy his entire head, motor and VFD was a better option in the end. Call around to local motor shops to see if they can do it or are interested in the job.

Nice mills though. Quite a few members here have them. You're a bit low on the weight estimate though. They're about 2900lbs, depending on a few things. Much beefier than a bridgeport......

The one in the add looks nice. Decent price too, but figure another $1000-1500 realistically to have it powered up and on your floor though. If you have any plans of possibly upgrading your lathe in the future, I'd go with a Phase converter and transformer, as you can amortize that cost over the two machines. The variable speed aspect of a VFD is somewhat moot on a Reeves drive machine. A bit nicer on a geared lathe, or surface grinder though.
 
Dan Dubeau said:
The variable speed aspect of a VFD is somewhat moot on a Reeves drive machine. A bit nicer on a geared lathe, or surface grinder though.
Click to expand...

Why is it nicer on a surface grinder? I have one on mine just to get 3ph power, but I never change the speed.
 
Dan Dubeau said:
Different surface speeds for different wheels/materials, and also for the soft start and ramp up ability.
Click to expand...

Doh...... Of course! The soft start I have. But because it had no speeds from the factory, I never thought about the impact of materials and wheels on the ideal speed.

Thank you!

It's prolly somewhat related to cutting speeds, but do you happen to have a chart of recommended speeds for grinding wheels and materials?
 
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