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Looking for Entry level Steel capable CNC

R

RyanTheMaker

New Member
Hey everyone, im new here. Since covid began i started converting my garage into a metalworking workshop and taught myself welding. I am looking for a Steel capable CNC Mill. Something of the same caliber as a https://www.langmuirsystems.com/ Plasma CNC but as a Mill. My price range is about $3000.
I look forward to any responses or suggestions!

Thank you!

-Ryan.
 
With your current budget I would suggest searching kijiji and marketplace for used machines. Try key words like, Milltronics , syil , journeyman tree cnc , VMC , cincinnati milacron ,
in your budget you will likely be looking at a machine for parts or repair.
 
Alexander said:
With your current budget I would suggest searching kijiji and marketplace for used machines. Try key words like, Milltronics , syil , journeyman tree cnc , VMC , cincinnati milacron ,
in your budget you will likely be looking at a machine for parts or repair.
Click to expand...

I understand that big CNC's run a lot higher then my budget, but im just looking for a nice small one with like 5"x5" workspace that can cut steel to make some small projects and to get my feet wet.

The issue i have with buying a used machine is i dont have the knowledge or experience with CNC's to know what to look out for on a used system. I dont want to end up with buying a lemon.
 
I am making one like this already with a budget of under 2000.

Its work envelope will be a bit bigger then what you are looking at - its a converted RF-30 mills. Budget includes used donor, all electronics and parts as well as heavy duty stand.

Buying a used system that is small and working (demonstrated) on your budget would mean either a mini mill conversion or some home made mill. Most "commercial" small milling solutions even when used will go well above 3000 if you can find them. Even *dropped* mills that may need a lot of new parts can be 1000s.

Problem is huge demand for small CNCs.

Yes you can (or at least used to) be able to buy actual VMC (through I seen 10x as many lathes in Alberta) for more or less scrap price. But it may not be that easy to fix it up. I could have gotten for just around 700 CAD more a BP clone for my donor. BUT conversion would be touch more involved for my first machine - for example I can lift the table off RF-30 but not off BP clone. Not to mention all parts would be touch more expensive.

After all once I do this conversion and know what I am up to I can always upgrade to a bigger machine if needed. My RF-30 CNC will not be "tiny" the whole set would top 1000 lbs without enclosure. Roughly similar to Tormach 770.

I also wanted a true VMC but VMC that Alexander has did not come on the market in last few years. I have missed a nice Hass Mini like 5 years ago but that was at the start of my machining. More recent auction finds had brutal pricing, Tormach that was used commercially and 2 versions old went close to new price. Thus "Alex" grade small true VMCs if you can find one somewhere will easily go for 10k when working.

A Tormach 440 machine alone without anything else is around 5400 USD new plus all the fees.

I expect my machine when all working will be worth at least 3000 CAD.
 
Tom Kitta said:
I am making one like this already with a budget of under 2000.

Its work envelope will be a bit bigger then what you are looking at - its a converted RF-30 mills. Budget includes used donor, all electronics and parts as well as heavy duty stand.

Buying a used system that is small and working (demonstrated) on your budget would mean either a mini mill conversion or some home made mill. Most "commercial" small milling solutions even when used will go well above 3000 if you can find them. Even *dropped* mills that may need a lot of new parts can be 1000s.

Problem is huge demand for small CNCs.

Yes you can (or at least used to) be able to buy actual VMC (through I seen 10x as many lathes in Alberta) for more or less scrap price. But it may not be that easy to fix it up. I could have gotten for just around 700 CAD more a BP clone for my donor. BUT conversion would be touch more involved for my first machine - for example I can lift the table off RF-30 but not off BP clone. Not to mention all parts would be touch more expensive.

After all once I do this conversion and know what I am up to I can always upgrade to a bigger machine if needed. My RF-30 CNC will not be "tiny" the whole set would top 1000 lbs without enclosure. Roughly similar to Tormach 770.

I also wanted a true VMC but VMC that Alexander has did not come on the market in last few years. I have missed a nice Hass Mini like 5 years ago but that was at the start of my machining. More recent auction finds had brutal pricing, Tormach that was used commercially and 2 versions old went close to new price. Thus "Alex" grade small true VMCs if you can find one somewhere will easily go for 10k when working.

A Tormach 440 machine alone without anything else is around 5400 USD new plus all the fees.

I expect my machine when all working will be worth at least 3000 CAD.
Click to expand...


thanks for the info! it sounds like you will have a pretty solid setup then for that budget. I know there are desktop CNC's on the market for Aluminum milling, which i might have to settle for in the beginning, it just would be nice to also have steel capability, but as you are explaining to me that seems very difficult for around $3000.

Are entry level Tormach's good quality? ive heard that brand a few times as far as beginner level home garage mills and CNC's.
 
All milling machines can mill steel as well - just they may not be able to "hog" steel. I.e. my conversion as well as all Tormach mills have no issues cutting steel, even harder grades - they just remove metal slower then aluminum by at least a factor of 3.

The main difference is that compared to even old VMC these hobby machines are very weak and very flexible - i.e. light weight. They also do not come in with cool features like auto oiler. Automatic tool changer is usually expensive extra etc. Hass Mini Mill is well within "hobby size" that most people can easily handle in the garage - it can even be had in 1ph. BUT it is based on capabilities of larger VMCs - thus it is not "hobby grade" like Tormach.

Tormach generally, from what I have heard, has better support then many other made in China hobby mills but far less then any industrial VMC. As far as capabilities it is "well fitting together" hobby grade - i.e. it would be hard, but not impossible for a hobbyist (especially beginner) to match their performance on budget. Advanced hobbyists easily make machines that out perform a Tormach, through these machines may end up costing more $. Heck some people build their machines from scratch - they use special liquid materials to poor in the casting, formulas are online and make machines that exceed even commercial VMC precision. One guy whom used to work for NASA has a lathe capable of 1 millionth of an inch precision - or something like that. Usually these machines are for precision not speed & are certainly not cheap + tons of work.

One member has a brand new Tormach 440. From pictures I recognized that it has smallest Nema 34 open loop motor - at least on X axis. My mill will already feature closed loop motors - i.e. 80% of a servo at 1/3 of the price. Thus when doing rapid traverses my mill (at least the motor) will be more precise then Tormach 440.

Of course it will be a learning curve to put together a CNC - the first time around takes like 10x more then 2nd.
 
Tom Kitta said:
All milling machines can mill steel as well - just they may not be able to "hog" steel. I.e. my conversion as well as all Tormach mills have no issues cutting steel, even harder grades - they just remove metal slower then aluminum by at least a factor of 3.

The main difference is that compared to even old VMC these hobby machines are very weak and very flexible - i.e. light weight. They also do not come in with cool features like auto oiler. Automatic tool changer is usually expensive extra etc. Hass Mini Mill is well within "hobby size" that most people can easily handle in the garage - it can even be had in 1ph. BUT it is based on capabilities of larger VMCs - thus it is not "hobby grade" like Tormach.

Tormach generally, from what I have heard, has better support then many other made in China hobby mills but far less then any industrial VMC. As far as capabilities it is "well fitting together" hobby grade - i.e. it would be hard, but not impossible for a hobbyist (especially beginner) to match their performance on budget. Advanced hobbyists easily make machines that out perform a Tormach, through these machines may end up costing more $. Heck some people build their machines from scratch - they use special liquid materials to poor in the casting, formulas are online and make machines that exceed even commercial VMC precision. One guy whom used to work for NASA has a lathe capable of 1 millionth of an inch precision - or something like that. Usually these machines are for precision not speed & are certainly not cheap + tons of work.

One member has a brand new Tormach 440. From pictures I recognized that it has smallest Nema 34 open loop motor - at least on X axis. My mill will already feature closed loop motors - i.e. 80% of a servo at 1/3 of the price. Thus when doing rapid traverses my mill (at least the motor) will be more precise then Tormach 440.

Of course it will be a learning curve to put together a CNC - the first time around takes like 10x more then 2nd.
Click to expand...
Hey tom do you have any pictures of your progress thus far?
 
Tom Kitta said:
Problem is huge demand for small CNCs.

I also wanted a true VMC but VMC that Alexander has did not come on the market in last few years. I have missed a nice Hass Mini like 5 years ago but that was at the start of my machining. More recent auction finds had brutal pricing, Tormach that was used commercially and 2 versions old went close to new price. Thus "Alex" grade small true VMCs if you can find one somewhere will easily go for 10k when working.
Click to expand...
I agree prices are brutal. A used cnc lathe is surprisingly expensive too. $30k for a 2005 haas SL-20 Edmonton. 16 years old. It’s no longer listed so I imagine it sold for about that price. $25k for an even older haas lathe here in Calgary with only 4 post tool changer and no chip auger or hydraulic chuck. How much was that machine new? $25k twenty years ago?
 
Hi ! i'm the member with the brand new Tormach 440. I really like it, it's a pretty capable little machine. I did a lot of machining with it; brass, alu, SS (aeb-l blade steel), and a lot of titanium. PathPilot (based on LinuxCNC) is stupidly great for all hobbyist/beginner. The biggest cons are: small work area, 0.75HP spindle motor. Biggest pro for me are: 10kRPM, rigidity, pathpilot.
The Tormach support is actually pretty good too. And the Tormach online community is also very great (especially for beginner). Tormach community + Fusion360 community = beginner best friend. Flood coolant is a must. And i can get the 4th axis and ATC when i'm ready. I would buy again.

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Very nice work. Look forward to more project/machining pictures, keep them coming!
Do you do your own blade hardening or send it out?
What is the color process there?
 
PeterT said:
Very nice work. Look forward to more project/machining pictures, keep them coming!
Do you do your own blade hardening or send it out?
What is the color process there?
Click to expand...

I would love to heat treat but didnt have the $ to build the setup i want for the moment (oven, custom quench plate with water cooling, cyro tank, Rockwell hardness tester). So yes i send the blade for heat treat. The color are anodizing. It's very simple to anodize Titanium at home. Way more simple than aluminum.
This was my first knife but i'm currently working on a titanium framelock knife. Thanks
 
The MR-1 look very promising. But I will wait before buying a new cnc like that to see the reviews and possible problems.
They have a nice youtube channel but i would like to see it perform with 3D toolpaths on small stainless parts (looks like it's a great test for precision from what i read)
Thats depend of the type of work you want to do in fact. If you want to make big parts like they do on their youtube channel that's perfect but if you want to make small parts using 10 different tools, may be not the best choice considering you have to measure and screw every time your tools in the spindle (no tool holder).
 
RyanTheMaker said:
thanks for the info! it sounds like you will have a pretty solid setup then for that budget. I know there are desktop CNC's on the market for Aluminum milling, which i might have to settle for in the beginning, it just would be nice to also have steel capability, but as you are explaining to me that seems very difficult for around $3000.

Are entry level Tormach's good quality? ive heard that brand a few times as far as beginner level home garage mills and CNC's.
Click to expand...
My take on a Tormach. I have a pcnc 1100s3. I've had it now for about a year, and bought it used, from someone who ran a small part time garage shop business with it for 6-7 years. I am a machinist by day, and currently run a fleet of Haas mills of various sizes (vf2, 3, 5, 6), and a nakamura lathe (plus manual stuff). I have also run a variety of other industrial machines over the years and no way does the tormach come close to even a small haas. That being said, I still like mine, and don't regret my purchase at all. I bought it used for less than half of a similarly optioned new one, with a few thousand dollars in tooling, upgrades and other goodies. I'd buy it again, but I'd have a hard time springing for a new one. PO went nuts buying all the youtube family upgrades and stuff, which I got barely used, for pennies on the dollar.

Pros
-It's a complete plug and play system with great support/community behind it.
-Small enough to run on easily available household power, and be moved around effortlessly with a pallet jack.
-Takes up less room than a small haas, which allows more room for other tools
-Fully capable of cutting steel, and other metals when used within it's capabilities. Youtube is full of both good and bad on this from people who don't know what they're doing saying they're complete shit, to the fanboys who think they are the holy grail with zero faults. IMO It's an adequate machine when used properly.
-Pathpilot is a pretty user friendly control with some great options that I actually like better than Haas. It has some parts I don't like though....The conversational is something I've really come to love. Our Haas' at work don't have quick code, and I really wish they did after running mine.
-Parts are relatively cheap and available, and you can easily fix them yourself. I haven't run into anything major yet, and nothing that wasn't my fault.
-It doesn't need a constant supply of air. My little quiet compressor is enough to run the toolchanger, and blow chips away.
-Don't listen to the people who say it's only good to 0.005". They're terrible machinists if that's all they're getting from it.

Cons
- I hate the stand/enclosure. It's too bulky and useless. Mine has the half one, not the full upper enclosure. It's unnecessarily big in width, but too short in depth. The coolant system is also an afterthought, and inadequate. I'm planning on someday completely redesigning it from the ground up. The vise sticks out from the enclosure so you need to be mindful of that around it, lest you take a vise handle in the pecker.
- Spindle could use a few more ponies/rpm too, but that's my complaint about all the machines I've ran.
- I don't like where the control cabinet is. Again, it's an after thought, but having it in the machining envelope being sprayed with coolant isn't the best solution IMO.
- The r8 spindle/tts system is "ok". Not great, but a decent compromise between speed/efficient toolchange, and rigidity, and adequate on a machine of this size. Again this goes back to using it within it's capabilities, so if you keep that in mind it's ok, but if you push it too far, it'll ruin your day/tools/workpiece. I'd prefer the bt-30, but mine came with 50 tts holders, so I'm not switching anytime soon.
- I don't have a toolchanger, so small production runs suck.
- I have my gripes about size and travel, but it's not too bad I guess. With a 6" vise on the table you lose too much valuable y travel and you can't hang the back of the vise off the table to accommodate for it, as it will hit the column. So the bulk of it hangs off the front, and you lose the fixed jaw thickness in y travel. Minor gripe, but IMO something I would think of when designing a machine from scratch like that. It's also a bad chip compressing spot you have to watch out for. I'm thinking about making a new thinner fixed jaw for my vise to gain some travel back. The rigidity i'd be giving up, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of the Tormach, so the added capacity is a big net gain. Of course a pair of 4" vises would probably be a better solution and one I'm thinking about too.
-Size/travel again, While it's a relatively small footprint machine compared to industrial ones, it's a big footprint for the actual travel of the machine. It could have been designed much more space efficiently. It feels like afterthought, layered upon afterthought, with another afterthought thrown on top for good measure.

Someday when I get a bigger space and need another spindle I will upgrade to an industrial machine. BUT I only have a single car garage shop right now, with limited power. The Tormach is the perfect machine for me at the moment. I'm using it within it's designed capabilities and it's working out just fine. Took some playing around at first to see what I can get away with and adjust my expectations to what I'm used to, but I'm very happy and satisfied with the results I'm getting from it. I like that it doesn't dim the lights, and I can barely hear it in the house while it chews away at stuff out in the garage. It does MUCH better in steel that I thought it would when I bought it. Just slower than what I'm used to. I'm ok with that. I do different work at home than I do at work, so the only issue is re calibrating my brain while programming lol.

I can't ever see selling mine. Even if I do upgrade to another one at some point, it would become a great support machine for little quick and dirty parts, and prepping of stock. I don't think i'd buy another one (unless it was dirt cheap), as I really want to move into a full enclosure VMC as my next machine. But for what it is, it's been a great addition to the shop. I don't seek out work for it, but a few jobs have turned up and so far have provided a little side income which is nice. Someday when i get caught up on projects I am going to redesign the stand/enclosure/coolant system for it, as that's my only really big gripe about it, but my expectations are unreasonably high, I get that.
 
Dan Dubeau said:
My take on a Tormach. I have a pcnc 1100s3. I've had it now for about a year, and bought it used, from someone who ran a small part time garage shop business with it for 6-7 years. I am a machinist by day, and currently run a fleet of Haas mills of various sizes (vf2, 3, 5, 6), and a nakamura lathe (plus manual stuff). I have also run a variety of other industrial machines over the years and no way does the tormach come close to even a small haas. That being said, I still like mine, and don't regret my purchase at all. I bought it used for less than half of a similarly optioned new one, with a few thousand dollars in tooling, upgrades and other goodies. I'd buy it again, but I'd have a hard time springing for a new one. PO went nuts buying all the youtube family upgrades and stuff, which I got barely used, for pennies on the dollar.

Pros
-It's a complete plug and play system with great support/community behind it.
-Small enough to run on easily available household power, and be moved around effortlessly with a pallet jack.
-Takes up less room than a small haas, which allows more room for other tools
-Fully capable of cutting steel, and other metals when used within it's capabilities. Youtube is full of both good and bad on this from people who don't know what they're doing saying they're complete shit, to the fanboys who think they are the holy grail with zero faults. IMO It's an adequate machine when used properly.
-Pathpilot is a pretty user friendly control with some great options that I actually like better than Haas. It has some parts I don't like though....The conversational is something I've really come to love. Our Haas' at work don't have quick code, and I really wish they did after running mine.
-Parts are relatively cheap and available, and you can easily fix them yourself. I haven't run into anything major yet, and nothing that wasn't my fault.
-It doesn't need a constant supply of air. My little quiet compressor is enough to run the toolchanger, and blow chips away.
-Don't listen to the people who say it's only good to 0.005". They're terrible machinists if that's all they're getting from it.

Cons
- I hate the stand/enclosure. It's too bulky and useless. Mine has the half one, not the full upper enclosure. It's unnecessarily big in width, but too short in depth. The coolant system is also an afterthought, and inadequate. I'm planning on someday completely redesigning it from the ground up. The vise sticks out from the enclosure so you need to be mindful of that around it, lest you take a vise handle in the pecker.
- Spindle could use a few more ponies/rpm too, but that's my complaint about all the machines I've ran.
- I don't like where the control cabinet is. Again, it's an after thought, but having it in the machining envelope being sprayed with coolant isn't the best solution IMO.
- The r8 spindle/tts system is "ok". Not great, but a decent compromise between speed/efficient toolchange, and rigidity, and adequate on a machine of this size. Again this goes back to using it within it's capabilities, so if you keep that in mind it's ok, but if you push it too far, it'll ruin your day/tools/workpiece. I'd prefer the bt-30, but mine came with 50 tts holders, so I'm not switching anytime soon.
- I don't have a toolchanger, so small production runs suck.
- I have my gripes about size and travel, but it's not too bad I guess. With a 6" vise on the table you lose too much valuable y travel and you can't hang the back of the vise off the table to accommodate for it, as it will hit the column. So the bulk of it hangs off the front, and you lose the fixed jaw thickness in y travel. Minor gripe, but IMO something I would think of when designing a machine from scratch like that. It's also a bad chip compressing spot you have to watch out for. I'm thinking about making a new thinner fixed jaw for my vise to gain some travel back. The rigidity i'd be giving up, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of the Tormach, so the added capacity is a big net gain. Of course a pair of 4" vises would probably be a better solution and one I'm thinking about too.
-Size/travel again, While it's a relatively small footprint machine compared to industrial ones, it's a big footprint for the actual travel of the machine. It could have been designed much more space efficiently. It feels like afterthought, layered upon afterthought, with another afterthought thrown on top for good measure.

Someday when I get a bigger space and need another spindle I will upgrade to an industrial machine. BUT I only have a single car garage shop right now, with limited power. The Tormach is the perfect machine for me at the moment. I'm using it within it's designed capabilities and it's working out just fine. Took some playing around at first to see what I can get away with and adjust my expectations to what I'm used to, but I'm very happy and satisfied with the results I'm getting from it. I like that it doesn't dim the lights, and I can barely hear it in the house while it chews away at stuff out in the garage. It does MUCH better in steel that I thought it would when I bought it. Just slower than what I'm used to. I'm ok with that. I do different work at home than I do at work, so the only issue is re calibrating my brain while programming lol.

I can't ever see selling mine. Even if I do upgrade to another one at some point, it would become a great support machine for little quick and dirty parts, and prepping of stock. I don't think i'd buy another one (unless it was dirt cheap), as I really want to move into a full enclosure VMC as my next machine. But for what it is, it's been a great addition to the shop. I don't seek out work for it, but a few jobs have turned up and so far have provided a little side income which is nice. Someday when i get caught up on projects I am going to redesign the stand/enclosure/coolant system for it, as that's my only really big gripe about it, but my expectations are unreasonably high, I get that.
Click to expand...

Dan - that’s the best review on the tormach I’ve ever read. Straight dirt. Thanks for the write up.
 
Dan Dubeau said:
My take on a Tormach. I have a pcnc 1100s3. I've had it now for about a year, and bought it used, from someone who ran a small part time garage shop business with it for 6-7 years. I am a machinist by day, and currently run a fleet of Haas mills of various sizes (vf2, 3, 5, 6), and a nakamura lathe (plus manual stuff). I have also run a variety of other industrial machines over the years and no way does the tormach come close to even a small haas. That being said, I still like mine, and don't regret my purchase at all. I bought it used for less than half of a similarly optioned new one, with a few thousand dollars in tooling, upgrades and other goodies. I'd buy it again, but I'd have a hard time springing for a new one. PO went nuts buying all the youtube family upgrades and stuff, which I got barely used, for pennies on the dollar.

Pros
-It's a complete plug and play system with great support/community behind it.
-Small enough to run on easily available household power, and be moved around effortlessly with a pallet jack.
-Takes up less room than a small haas, which allows more room for other tools
-Fully capable of cutting steel, and other metals when used within it's capabilities. Youtube is full of both good and bad on this from people who don't know what they're doing saying they're complete shit, to the fanboys who think they are the holy grail with zero faults. IMO It's an adequate machine when used properly.
-Pathpilot is a pretty user friendly control with some great options that I actually like better than Haas. It has some parts I don't like though....The conversational is something I've really come to love. Our Haas' at work don't have quick code, and I really wish they did after running mine.
-Parts are relatively cheap and available, and you can easily fix them yourself. I haven't run into anything major yet, and nothing that wasn't my fault.
-It doesn't need a constant supply of air. My little quiet compressor is enough to run the toolchanger, and blow chips away.
-Don't listen to the people who say it's only good to 0.005". They're terrible machinists if that's all they're getting from it.

Cons
- I hate the stand/enclosure. It's too bulky and useless. Mine has the half one, not the full upper enclosure. It's unnecessarily big in width, but too short in depth. The coolant system is also an afterthought, and inadequate. I'm planning on someday completely redesigning it from the ground up. The vise sticks out from the enclosure so you need to be mindful of that around it, lest you take a vise handle in the pecker.
- Spindle could use a few more ponies/rpm too, but that's my complaint about all the machines I've ran.
- I don't like where the control cabinet is. Again, it's an after thought, but having it in the machining envelope being sprayed with coolant isn't the best solution IMO.
- The r8 spindle/tts system is "ok". Not great, but a decent compromise between speed/efficient toolchange, and rigidity, and adequate on a machine of this size. Again this goes back to using it within it's capabilities, so if you keep that in mind it's ok, but if you push it too far, it'll ruin your day/tools/workpiece. I'd prefer the bt-30, but mine came with 50 tts holders, so I'm not switching anytime soon.
- I don't have a toolchanger, so small production runs suck.
- I have my gripes about size and travel, but it's not too bad I guess. With a 6" vise on the table you lose too much valuable y travel and you can't hang the back of the vise off the table to accommodate for it, as it will hit the column. So the bulk of it hangs off the front, and you lose the fixed jaw thickness in y travel. Minor gripe, but IMO something I would think of when designing a machine from scratch like that. It's also a bad chip compressing spot you have to watch out for. I'm thinking about making a new thinner fixed jaw for my vise to gain some travel back. The rigidity i'd be giving up, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of the Tormach, so the added capacity is a big net gain. Of course a pair of 4" vises would probably be a better solution and one I'm thinking about too.
-Size/travel again, While it's a relatively small footprint machine compared to industrial ones, it's a big footprint for the actual travel of the machine. It could have been designed much more space efficiently. It feels like afterthought, layered upon afterthought, with another afterthought thrown on top for good measure.

Someday when I get a bigger space and need another spindle I will upgrade to an industrial machine. BUT I only have a single car garage shop right now, with limited power. The Tormach is the perfect machine for me at the moment. I'm using it within it's designed capabilities and it's working out just fine. Took some playing around at first to see what I can get away with and adjust my expectations to what I'm used to, but I'm very happy and satisfied with the results I'm getting from it. I like that it doesn't dim the lights, and I can barely hear it in the house while it chews away at stuff out in the garage. It does MUCH better in steel that I thought it would when I bought it. Just slower than what I'm used to. I'm ok with that. I do different work at home than I do at work, so the only issue is re calibrating my brain while programming lol.

I can't ever see selling mine. Even if I do upgrade to another one at some point, it would become a great support machine for little quick and dirty parts, and prepping of stock. I don't think i'd buy another one (unless it was dirt cheap), as I really want to move into a full enclosure VMC as my next machine. But for what it is, it's been a great addition to the shop. I don't seek out work for it, but a few jobs have turned up and so far have provided a little side income which is nice. Someday when i get caught up on projects I am going to redesign the stand/enclosure/coolant system for it, as that's my only really big gripe about it, but my expectations are unreasonably high, I get that.
Click to expand...

Excellent review! My thoughts exactly, without using the machine but reading all other reviews. A lot of things do with price. Since you got your machine cheap (this is super hard to do - I looked at few machines and multiple beaten up old ones sold for like 80% of new (!!!)) it was a good deal for you - but at new price - not so great.

Many pp deal with absolutes - like which truck is the best or car or CNC machine etc. without taking into account price. Price should factor big into things, at new price a Tormach is not a great deal, but if one can get used one (lucky) at what you paid for, it suddenly is a great deal.
 
Dan Dubeau said:
My take on a Tormach. I have a pcnc 1100s3. I've had it now for about a year, and bought it used, from someone who ran a small part time garage shop business with it for 6-7 years. I am a machinist by day, and currently run a fleet of Haas mills of various sizes (vf2, 3, 5, 6), and a nakamura lathe (plus manual stuff). I have also run a variety of other industrial machines over the years and no way does the tormach come close to even a small haas. That being said, I still like mine, and don't regret my purchase at all. I bought it used for less than half of a similarly optioned new one, with a few thousand dollars in tooling, upgrades and other goodies. I'd buy it again, but I'd have a hard time springing for a new one. PO went nuts buying all the youtube family upgrades and stuff, which I got barely used, for pennies on the dollar.

Pros
-It's a complete plug and play system with great support/community behind it.
-Small enough to run on easily available household power, and be moved around effortlessly with a pallet jack.
-Takes up less room than a small haas, which allows more room for other tools
-Fully capable of cutting steel, and other metals when used within it's capabilities. Youtube is full of both good and bad on this from people who don't know what they're doing saying they're complete shit, to the fanboys who think they are the holy grail with zero faults. IMO It's an adequate machine when used properly.
-Pathpilot is a pretty user friendly control with some great options that I actually like better than Haas. It has some parts I don't like though....The conversational is something I've really come to love. Our Haas' at work don't have quick code, and I really wish they did after running mine.
-Parts are relatively cheap and available, and you can easily fix them yourself. I haven't run into anything major yet, and nothing that wasn't my fault.
-It doesn't need a constant supply of air. My little quiet compressor is enough to run the toolchanger, and blow chips away.
-Don't listen to the people who say it's only good to 0.005". They're terrible machinists if that's all they're getting from it.

Cons
- I hate the stand/enclosure. It's too bulky and useless. Mine has the half one, not the full upper enclosure. It's unnecessarily big in width, but too short in depth. The coolant system is also an afterthought, and inadequate. I'm planning on someday completely redesigning it from the ground up. The vise sticks out from the enclosure so you need to be mindful of that around it, lest you take a vise handle in the pecker.
- Spindle could use a few more ponies/rpm too, but that's my complaint about all the machines I've ran.
- I don't like where the control cabinet is. Again, it's an after thought, but having it in the machining envelope being sprayed with coolant isn't the best solution IMO.
- The r8 spindle/tts system is "ok". Not great, but a decent compromise between speed/efficient toolchange, and rigidity, and adequate on a machine of this size. Again this goes back to using it within it's capabilities, so if you keep that in mind it's ok, but if you push it too far, it'll ruin your day/tools/workpiece. I'd prefer the bt-30, but mine came with 50 tts holders, so I'm not switching anytime soon.
- I don't have a toolchanger, so small production runs suck.
- I have my gripes about size and travel, but it's not too bad I guess. With a 6" vise on the table you lose too much valuable y travel and you can't hang the back of the vise off the table to accommodate for it, as it will hit the column. So the bulk of it hangs off the front, and you lose the fixed jaw thickness in y travel. Minor gripe, but IMO something I would think of when designing a machine from scratch like that. It's also a bad chip compressing spot you have to watch out for. I'm thinking about making a new thinner fixed jaw for my vise to gain some travel back. The rigidity i'd be giving up, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of the Tormach, so the added capacity is a big net gain. Of course a pair of 4" vises would probably be a better solution and one I'm thinking about too.
-Size/travel again, While it's a relatively small footprint machine compared to industrial ones, it's a big footprint for the actual travel of the machine. It could have been designed much more space efficiently. It feels like afterthought, layered upon afterthought, with another afterthought thrown on top for good measure.

Someday when I get a bigger space and need another spindle I will upgrade to an industrial machine. BUT I only have a single car garage shop right now, with limited power. The Tormach is the perfect machine for me at the moment. I'm using it within it's designed capabilities and it's working out just fine. Took some playing around at first to see what I can get away with and adjust my expectations to what I'm used to, but I'm very happy and satisfied with the results I'm getting from it. I like that it doesn't dim the lights, and I can barely hear it in the house while it chews away at stuff out in the garage. It does MUCH better in steel that I thought it would when I bought it. Just slower than what I'm used to. I'm ok with that. I do different work at home than I do at work, so the only issue is re calibrating my brain while programming lol.

I can't ever see selling mine. Even if I do upgrade to another one at some point, it would become a great support machine for little quick and dirty parts, and prepping of stock. I don't think i'd buy another one (unless it was dirt cheap), as I really want to move into a full enclosure VMC as my next machine. But for what it is, it's been a great addition to the shop. I don't seek out work for it, but a few jobs have turned up and so far have provided a little side income which is nice. Someday when i get caught up on projects I am going to redesign the stand/enclosure/coolant system for it, as that's my only really big gripe about it, but my expectations are unreasonably high, I get that.
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I had the 1100 s3 in my old shop and you are 100% right. But i want to say something for the guys who don't know Tormach CNC; the 1100 s3 is not in production anymore, the new1100MX have a pretty decent enclosure, 2HP spindle motor,10krpm and BT30.
 
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