This was reposted by one of my engineer facebook friends in the UK. I don't know how many of the numbers are actually 'fake news' values but it's along the lines of what I've suspected.
-
Scam Alert. Members are reminded to NOT send money to buy anything. Don't buy things remote and have it shipped - go get it yourself, pay in person, and take your equipment with you. Scammers have burned people on this forum. Urgency, secrecy, excuses, selling for friend, newish members, FUD, are RED FLAGS. A video conference call is not adequate assurance. Face to face interactions are required. Please report suspicions to the forum admins. Stay Safe - anyone can get scammed.
Lithium Battery Technology
- Thread starter jcdammeyer
- Start date
Instagram post misleads on Tesla cars and lithium mining
Electric cars are frequently criticized for hidden environmental impacts, from carbon dioxide emitted during manufacturi
www.politifact.com
Breakdown of raw materials in Tesla's batteries and possible bottlenecks
Because of its name, lithium-ion (li-ion), people think that li-ion batteries are primarily made of lithium and that if we...
electrek.co
Problem with this info is it's only considering lithium, and a Tesla is no different than any other vehicle. Takes the same amount of materials to build an aluminum-body gas-powered F250. So looking at only the batteries is a red herring.
And just looking at the batteries, yes, it takes some machinery to move the rock to get the raw materials to make lithium batteries. Conversely, to produce 55 gallons of crude oil needs four tons of sand and overburden removal at Ft. Macmurray. https://www.ienearth.org/tar-sands-facts/ was the simpleste reference I found.
Except that the lithium battery only needs to be made once for ever ten years. https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-of...ing to the Tesla website,to around 8-12 years.
So compare that to the amount of tar sands overburden required to produce 10 years worth of gas for the F250. Let's say the F250 gets 20 MPG, and drives 20K per year. So needs 10,000 gallons of fuel for ten years. 10,000 gallons divided by 55 gallons times four tons equals 727 tons. Way over simplified and way too low, because they don't get 55 gallons of gas from 55 gallons of crude.
There's so much BS strewn about by both sides of this debate, we could go to strictly methane-powered vehicles just from the excess gasses produced.
I won't buy a Tesla because Elon is a dick, not because the technology is bad.
And just looking at the batteries, yes, it takes some machinery to move the rock to get the raw materials to make lithium batteries. Conversely, to produce 55 gallons of crude oil needs four tons of sand and overburden removal at Ft. Macmurray. https://www.ienearth.org/tar-sands-facts/ was the simpleste reference I found.
Except that the lithium battery only needs to be made once for ever ten years. https://8billiontrees.com/carbon-of...ing to the Tesla website,to around 8-12 years.
So compare that to the amount of tar sands overburden required to produce 10 years worth of gas for the F250. Let's say the F250 gets 20 MPG, and drives 20K per year. So needs 10,000 gallons of fuel for ten years. 10,000 gallons divided by 55 gallons times four tons equals 727 tons. Way over simplified and way too low, because they don't get 55 gallons of gas from 55 gallons of crude.
There's so much BS strewn about by both sides of this debate, we could go to strictly methane-powered vehicles just from the excess gasses produced.
I won't buy a Tesla because Elon is a dick, not because the technology is bad.
Matt-Aburg
Ultra Member
I drive a Pontiac with 198000 km on it. I hope to get another 10 years out... by that time I might only need an electric powered scooter...
Former Member
Guest
Do you get a Nomex suit with your EV purchase? 
Doggggboy
Ultra Member
19 to 20 gallons of gas and 11 or 12 gallons of diesel or heating fuel from a barrel of oil. Not sure if that is light crude or tar sands crude.
The real problem is neither the electric nor petroleum based vehicles are measured in carbon currency. Casting an aluminum engine and transmission also cost carbon but is the combined total more expensive in carbon currency than the electric side of things.
It's quite possible that the cost of producing a petroleum vehicle and burning petroleum it is equivalent to the cost of producing an electric vehicle. And then the petroleum vehicle pollutes more during operation while perhaps the cost of recycling the battery pack equals the same carbon currency as the other. And depending on where you live the electricity doesn't come from hydro or wind or solar but from burning Nat Gas or even Coal.
The two links @David_R8 posted slammed the cost guestimates but didn't offer accurate numbers for the other side. Having worked with Lithium Batteries (Valence brand) and also Lead Acid temperature of the battery has a big impact on both running and charging. Not an issue in Florida or Texas or California but Fort St. John or for that matter most of the Canadian prairies will have temperature issues. Of course unlike Vancouver or Victoria, many parking lots in Edmonton had plug in outlets for the block heaters. Now with synthetic oil they may not be as popular anymore.
But a Lithium battery needs to be above zero for charging and doesn't really like being discharged below -10C. So maybe the Electric cars have Lead Acid batteries to heat the Lithium until they can keep themselves warm?
It's quite possible that the cost of producing a petroleum vehicle and burning petroleum it is equivalent to the cost of producing an electric vehicle. And then the petroleum vehicle pollutes more during operation while perhaps the cost of recycling the battery pack equals the same carbon currency as the other. And depending on where you live the electricity doesn't come from hydro or wind or solar but from burning Nat Gas or even Coal.
The two links @David_R8 posted slammed the cost guestimates but didn't offer accurate numbers for the other side. Having worked with Lithium Batteries (Valence brand) and also Lead Acid temperature of the battery has a big impact on both running and charging. Not an issue in Florida or Texas or California but Fort St. John or for that matter most of the Canadian prairies will have temperature issues. Of course unlike Vancouver or Victoria, many parking lots in Edmonton had plug in outlets for the block heaters. Now with synthetic oil they may not be as popular anymore.
But a Lithium battery needs to be above zero for charging and doesn't really like being discharged below -10C. So maybe the Electric cars have Lead Acid batteries to heat the Lithium until they can keep themselves warm?
I don’t think there is a perfect technology, and electric cars (in the current state of the art) will never 100% replace internal combustion vehicles. I can’t imagine current EV technology getting goods to Tuktoyaktuk in February. However, I live in Vancouver, in a 45-unit townhouse complex. My guess is there are probably a dozen EVs among my neighbours, and maybe a dozen hybrids. The environment and driving requirements, as well as a small amount of status seeking by those needing community approval can justify spending $60k on a Tesla.
Not for me, I don’t give a crap what other people think, my 2010 Toyota has 200k and shows no indications that it’s going to fail any time soon. SWMBO has a pristine 2003 Corolla that will likely survive the next mega asteroid impact. My summer transport is often my tiny motorcycle, at 160 mpg. I spend roughly $200 a month on gas, for me break even on even a cheap $45k EV would be decades.
A mix of technologies will be the way forward. Diesel, electric, hybrid, hydrogen, natural gas, whatever is appropriate for the task at hand. And I have great faith in the engineers and scientists currently working on evolution of transport.
Not for me, I don’t give a crap what other people think, my 2010 Toyota has 200k and shows no indications that it’s going to fail any time soon. SWMBO has a pristine 2003 Corolla that will likely survive the next mega asteroid impact. My summer transport is often my tiny motorcycle, at 160 mpg. I spend roughly $200 a month on gas, for me break even on even a cheap $45k EV would be decades.
A mix of technologies will be the way forward. Diesel, electric, hybrid, hydrogen, natural gas, whatever is appropriate for the task at hand. And I have great faith in the engineers and scientists currently working on evolution of transport.
We're in a similar boat.
I work from home. My gas money for my 2011 GMC Canyon with 79000 kms is <$75/mo. Would be less if I stopped finding good deals on Marketplace
My wife works 8 kms from home and rides a bike with electric assist from April to October.
Is an EV in our future? Maybe but it's a long way out.
I work from home. My gas money for my 2011 GMC Canyon with 79000 kms is <$75/mo. Would be less if I stopped finding good deals on Marketplace
My wife works 8 kms from home and rides a bike with electric assist from April to October.
Is an EV in our future? Maybe but it's a long way out.
Sweet jeeez man, $75 for a months worth of gas.... my Co-op card lock bill i just paid was pushing $400 for the month.
I don’t think the technological and economic sums have shaken out to the ultimate solution yet. We seem to have a push toward all electric but as some have already highlighted above there are uncertainties about the full life cycle picture, including politics.
On the more conventional side, Bosch is saying their research into carbon neutral gasoline is promising. Bosch carbon neutral fuel They rightly point out that a large part of the fossil fuel consumption is for ship and truck transport and that hasn’t gotten the attention cars have.
Wikipedia article: Carbon neutral fuel
Motor Trend green gasoline article
One large factor for not abandoning gasoline/hydrocarbon fuel is the refining and distribution networks are already bought and paid for.
It will be (technologically) interesting.
I’m not ready to give up my VW Yet!
D
On the more conventional side, Bosch is saying their research into carbon neutral gasoline is promising. Bosch carbon neutral fuel They rightly point out that a large part of the fossil fuel consumption is for ship and truck transport and that hasn’t gotten the attention cars have.
Wikipedia article: Carbon neutral fuel
Motor Trend green gasoline article
One large factor for not abandoning gasoline/hydrocarbon fuel is the refining and distribution networks are already bought and paid for.
It will be (technologically) interesting.
I’m not ready to give up my VW Yet!
D
The industry itself refers to "Life Cycle" emissions. Life cycle includes everything that goes into the product from assembly plant construction and operating energy consumption, materials production, refining, smelting, casting, transportation, energy production, transportation, distribution, maintenance, sales, and ultimately usage on the road - all on a per km basis. The hard part is accounting for past energy investments for existing infrastructure.
After extensive debate I won't look at anything less. It is just too easy to hide the weenie.
The other side of the coin is the life cycle cost per km. None of this is worth doing if the only people who can use it are the rich. I am sick and tired of being lectured about what I need to do to save the world by a movie star or politician who zips around the world in a private jet or a mega yacht.
A very long time ago, I coined the term "plantoline" at a conference I spoke at.
Crude oil is just sunlight energy converted into hydro carbons by plants and animals that died millions of years ago and then converted to crude by millions of years of pressure.
There is no reason why man can't bio-engineer a plant that could do what plants do which is to harvest CO2 and water, using Sunlight to make hydrocarbons that could be heavier and directly used as a carbon neutral fuel. As your links show, it is being done today, and I predict that this is the horse to bet on.
Of course, when that happens, the world would embroil itself in the great global cooling debate caused by excessive sunlight harvesting.......
Ironman
Ultra Member
Your numbers are on the low side for the Atacama Desert, which is the greatest producer of this metal. The real horror is the water usage and destruction of land the locals use.
Most of the worlds oil is abiotic and it just won't go away, it will continue to come to the surface. The tons of CO and methane coming to the surface of the dams in BC and (I assume in Quebec) have been documented but lets ignore it.
I think that electric vehicles, despite their huge carbon footprint, are a good thing for the masses who love to live in cities. For the people who produce the food and raw materials for them, the best thing that can be done is to leave them alone to use what works.
One size does not fit all.
Ironman
Ultra Member
Very astute comment JD
I have a very large lithium battery and I sincerely wish I had gone with a lead/acid forklift battery at 3 times the cost. One attempt to charge it at below 0C will permanently irreversibly plate out the lithium as a metal and destroy it. That may happen despite my efforts anyway. And it is a serious fire hazard as well.
A hybrid is the real way to go. Here is an example of people doing it right without out tax dollars being abused and wasted.
Last edited:
I really like their approach - Diesel-Electric has worked for trains for years; adding enough battery to level out the generator demand is a clear win.
I was pointed to a video on music notation a couple of days ago:
If you like chess at all, the first few minutes take you through the history of chess notation, with a proper payout at 9:49 for all you musicologists out there.
Former Member
Guest
Lets deal with the elephant in the room, where does the charge power come from? Infrastructure will not be ready for the phase out, so what are you going to give up? Heating, lights, washing, computing, manufacturing....the list goes on.
Second long distance traveling is going to be more costly, my time has a $ value attached to it, and stopping to charge for an hour or 2, sveral times in a travel day does not makes sense $ wise.
Third, want to cut fossil fuel usage localize manufacturing, local transport is still required but world wide transport for raw materials and return of finished products is greatly reduced. When you see shipping traffic on the ocean first hand do realize where fuel (wasted) is being burned, and quickly realize it is about profits for a few and nothing to do about environmental responsibility for the masses.
Solution, large massive base material manufacturing in several key areas around the world, localized manufacturing from the base materials to support local markets. Only catch, world politics and greed need to end. Good luck with that.
Second long distance traveling is going to be more costly, my time has a $ value attached to it, and stopping to charge for an hour or 2, sveral times in a travel day does not makes sense $ wise.
Third, want to cut fossil fuel usage localize manufacturing, local transport is still required but world wide transport for raw materials and return of finished products is greatly reduced. When you see shipping traffic on the ocean first hand do realize where fuel (wasted) is being burned, and quickly realize it is about profits for a few and nothing to do about environmental responsibility for the masses.
Solution, large massive base material manufacturing in several key areas around the world, localized manufacturing from the base materials to support local markets. Only catch, world politics and greed need to end. Good luck with that.
Just my opinion as a factory trained hybrid/EV technician is that the only one's that make sense for our climate and infrastructure are PHEV's. Go all day on a charge, can charge itself when it needs to without leaving you stranded, and can be plugged in at night on a timer. The batteries are much smaller of course but for short trips like 90% of people mostly do, they have good capacity.
Very difficult and controversial subjects, energy, renewable energy, energy storage, energy conversion, carbon, carbon neutral, and climit change, etc., etc.
Very few, if any processes take a "real" look and accounting of the energy needed to make, refine, recover, anything.
The planet is warming up, this has happened before, to what extent is difficult to know. However, 8 billion +/- people with a body temp. of 98.5 degrees is likely haveing some effect, and this is before a meal is cooked and eaten and resulting methane production,in hand with normal breathing out of CO2.
A few people are worried about some livestock eating grass/bush, drinking some water and so on. There were over 20 million? Buffalo running around at one time, that system seemed to work fairly well, not even looking at all the other animals that were out and about.
As an interesting side note of present talks in Dubai, it seems that the "carbon market" is a big problem, my limited knowledge? and experience? With this is that large energy users and polluters can buy carbon credits to off set their" books" to make things look better then they really are. The sad thing is someone with trees/ plants on their property (farmers/etc.), that is storing carbon is not able to "take part" in the system.
One of the large problems I see with going to an electrical energy grid/electric power vehicles is the recharging of such. In many areas the grid is over used now and can not handle much higher useage. Make up your mind if you will charge your car up, or cook some dinner, maybe heat your house above freezing. I don't know where all the electricity will come from, coal burning is higher in some country's to make more power now.
Guess the grid will need revamping/upgrading, got to get some copper for wires. Hmm, need to make equipment to dig up the copper and so on.
Will I trade in my cordless rechargeable drill for the hand crank one, not willingly ( I still have a couple hand crankers)
Did this writing solve anything, no not likely, it is just a few feelings and personal views barely touching on some of the things I see out in a world I live on. I have not ment to crank anyone's tractor the wrong way!
Very few, if any processes take a "real" look and accounting of the energy needed to make, refine, recover, anything.
The planet is warming up, this has happened before, to what extent is difficult to know. However, 8 billion +/- people with a body temp. of 98.5 degrees is likely haveing some effect, and this is before a meal is cooked and eaten and resulting methane production,in hand with normal breathing out of CO2.
A few people are worried about some livestock eating grass/bush, drinking some water and so on. There were over 20 million? Buffalo running around at one time, that system seemed to work fairly well, not even looking at all the other animals that were out and about.
As an interesting side note of present talks in Dubai, it seems that the "carbon market" is a big problem, my limited knowledge? and experience? With this is that large energy users and polluters can buy carbon credits to off set their" books" to make things look better then they really are. The sad thing is someone with trees/ plants on their property (farmers/etc.), that is storing carbon is not able to "take part" in the system.
One of the large problems I see with going to an electrical energy grid/electric power vehicles is the recharging of such. In many areas the grid is over used now and can not handle much higher useage. Make up your mind if you will charge your car up, or cook some dinner, maybe heat your house above freezing. I don't know where all the electricity will come from, coal burning is higher in some country's to make more power now.
Guess the grid will need revamping/upgrading, got to get some copper for wires. Hmm, need to make equipment to dig up the copper and so on.
Will I trade in my cordless rechargeable drill for the hand crank one, not willingly ( I still have a couple hand crankers)
Did this writing solve anything, no not likely, it is just a few feelings and personal views barely touching on some of the things I see out in a world I live on. I have not ment to crank anyone's tractor the wrong way!