Shop Inheritance Machining Episode

[Tomc938]

I'm looking for the collective wisdom of the group:

On a couple of episodes he talks about his grandfather's wisdom in putting wheels under the lathe and milling machine. I always thought the conventional wisdom was bolt it down tightly.

Generally, the IM guy is pretty spot on with about everything he does, so this has me wondering.

I'm getting my new-to-me Ex-Cell-O 602 and King 1236 delivered by HIAB this next week. Should I be looking at keeping them off the ground with the idea of putting a heavy wheeled (Machine skates) frame under them, or drop them on the cement? Easier to do it now when the crane is here. (the mill is currently on a pallet, and has lived there for the last few decades. The guy who is selling is a retired tool and die maker, and had no issues with it on a pallet.

Lifting the lathe is less of an issue that the 1 ton mill.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Canadium]

Based on what I've read/heard from others there are pros/cons. Anchoring the machine to a heavy base can reduce vibrations and improve quality of machining possible. On the other hand even concrete floors can crack and shift and if such shifting/cracks appear under an anchored machine the machine could be damaged. In the past some shops would excavate a special hole under the new machine that would be filled with concrete to form a special separate base in the floor separate from the rest of the floor so that no cracking in the concrete would happen right under the machine and also provide a super heavy base to anchor too. In a hobby shop on the other hand having machines on wheels makes things much more easy to rearrange in the shop.

 

[mbond]

uhhhhhh.... just don't do that

 

[DavidR8]

I think it really depends on your situation. In my teeny shop I need stuff to be mobile. My mill is on a wheeled stand with retractable casters but both lathes are on adjustable legs. But, and this is a big but, I have an engine hoist that can easily lift every machine I have so they are easily moved.

 

[mbond]

at a minimum, the stress concentrations will be much worse and you will destroy your wheels if you don't destroy your concrete floor

 

[YotaBota]

I don't think smaller lathes need to bolted to the floor but it would be prudent to have adjustable feet to remove any twist from the bed and lift it off the wheels. The bed doesn't need to be perfectly level, just needs not to have a twist.
Not sure about wheels under the mill.

 

[Arbutus]

If you have an appreciation for precision work, it will quickly be apparent that the (very flexible) frames of machines such as lathes distort a lot when working under load. If you doubt that, rig up a DTI and use your muscles to push and pull on the machine. It will flex quite easily. Even a 1236 lathe. Now firmly bolt it to concrete, taking great care to level the feet to ensure no twisting loads are introduced when its seated, and try hauling on it as before. Big difference.

To limit bed deflection, I bolted my Emco V10P to a 6 ft 8x8 H girder which itself weighed over 300lbs. It is absolutely solid.

 

[thestelster]

This is what I did for my Ex-Cell-O. They are big and heavy, but also top heavy. Moving it around is not a good idea. In my case, I can slip a pallet truck underbeath and move it if necessary.

Lathes, especially if they're long, mine is 1654, should be bolted into the concrete and checked for level every year.

 

[SomeGuy]

Here's what I did with mine:

 

[Tomc938]

Thanks or all the input! Excellent ideas.

I found out my neighbour has a pallet jack, so moving it later is an option, as long as I can get under it.

I'm thinking I'll use some 2x10's I have and lay them flat with spots open for the forks to go under. The forks will reach across the base. Do you think it would be OK to lift by the edge of the base casting in two places for shifting around a bit? I don't want to make it too high, as I'm not, and the draw bar is way up there already.

Otherwise I'll go with a pallet so I can move it if needed later. And I think the pallet idea will save me huge headaches down the road.

 

[Tomc938]

Here's what I did with mine:

Nice!

 

[Susquatch]

@Tomc938 - quite frankly, I watched a few minutes of inheritance machining and decided that was the last time I'd watch him. Too many blatant errors.

The concrete floor bit wasn't in the piece I watched. But, I'm not surprised and I'm simply not in that camp. That's not to say it wouldn't work, but I am pretty darn sure a solid mount is better by a VERY wide margin. A very small lathe on a heavy table on wheels might be ok. But even that would be better on the floor.

Everything shakes and everything bends. Why make this worse?

 

[Former Member]

I have my 12x36 CX707 on vibration isolating adjustable feet, nice things is the lathe once leveled floats a little. So far very impressed with the results. Feet where from KBC.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

My 602 sits on thick rubber/cork pads at the corners. Just high enough I can slide my toe jack under it, and have it up in the air for pipe rollers in no time should I need to move it again. I thought about building a "pallet" cradle for it so I could slide my pallet jack under it to move also, but it's pretty easy to get it up there by itself too. I still might someday. Sitting on a pallet is fine, my only concern would be adding unnecessary height. Mills are high enough as is, and there's a reason most machinists right shoulders are toast..... If you have, or are going to add a power drawbar then that concern is moot.

I guess my answer is, it depends. How tall are you, and is the added height going to be a problem. For me, at just under 6' most lathes are way too short, but the mills on the floor are ok. On a pallet with armstrong drawbar, I'd be calling to book a few more physio appointments for my shoulder again. Measure yourself, and consult some ergonomics charts to figure out the best heights for you. IMO most lathes could be a 6"-12" taller. All mills need a power drawbar though. .

The lathe I would want sitting on the ground. And as you said, it's much smaller and more easily moved, so keeping it as connected to the floor is possible is better. The web and forums are full of lots of idea about how to stiffen up small bench top lathes and make them punch above their weight class. I don't have anything personally to add on that. But it's worth looking into. My Super 7 came on a well made stand from the previous owner, and I have no complaints about it except It's hard to move and too short. Ridigity hasn't been an issue, but I don't really push it all that hard.

 

[Tomc938]

I’m only 5’ 9”, so the height is definitely an issue.

If I would put the mill directly on the floor, how would I lift it to get a pallet jack under it? I’m not used to moving these big pieces of equipment. Once I have pipes under it, I’m fine…

 

[Tecnico]

I’m only 5’ 9”, so the height is definitely an issue.

If I would put the mill directly on the floor, how would I lift it to get a pallet jack under it? I’m not used to moving these big pieces of equipment. Once I have pipes under it, I’m fine…

EDIT: Looking at the manual, it looks like you have the slots in the base footprint that will let you get a lifting lever under it so you can get it up on rollers etc. whenever you like so that makes life simpler getting set up. I MacGyvered my lifting lever with rollers, so not a big deal when you need one.


Does your machine have a couple of slots in the base like my First that let you slip a lifting lever under it or is the base on the floor all the way around? If it has the slots then it's easy to lever it to get it up on rollers or whatever but if not then you would want to think about placing it on something that lets you get the lifter under it later unless you have a gantry or similar.

FWIW, I have a cradle under mine kind of like @Dan Dubeau talks about. It makes it super easy to move it, I just rolled it out 4' yesterday to get at other things in the shop and took the opportunity to vacuum under it!

D

 

[Tomc938]

EDIT: Looking at the manual, it looks like you have the slots in the base footprint that will let you get a lifting lever under it so you can get it up on rollers etc. whenever you like so that makes life simpler getting set up. I MacGyvered my lifting lever with rollers, so not a big deal when you need one.


Does your machine have a couple of slots in the base like my First that let you slip a lifting lever under it or is the base on the floor all the way around? If it has the slots then it's easy to lever it to get it up on rollers or whatever but if not then you would want to think about placing it on something that lets you get the lifter under it later unless you have a gantry or similar.

FWIW, I have a cradle under mine kind of like @Dan Dubeau talks about. It makes it super easy to move it, I just rolled it out 4' yesterday to get at other things in the shop and took the opportunity to vacuum under it!

D

I will have to look tomorrow. If it had those lots, that would be awesome. The first one inch is always the hardest.

Thanks to you – and everyone – for all the input. It’s nice to have the collective wisdom of the board for stuff like this.

 

[Dan Dubeau]

I’m only 5’ 9”, so the height is definitely an issue.

If I would put the mill directly on the floor, how would I lift it to get a pallet jack under it? I’m not used to moving these big pieces of equipment. Once I have pipes under it, I’m fine…

I have a nice toe jack that slips under the cutout in the casting. 12, or 20 ton I can't remember. You can lift it with a pinch bar and appropriate packing/cribbing a little at a time though. Plywood scraps are great. Hardwood blocks for bigger. 2x4 works, but be careful, it's not that durable, and wont last, Inspect for cracks and discard any piece that isn't solid. I first make sure the machine table is in the middle and balanced, I also like to crank the knee right down.....then I jacked it up, and used blocking of a suitable height that is narrower than the pallet forks inside, on either side of the toe jack. Do this front and rear and your mill should now be sitting on a narrow pedestal that you can carefully slip the pallet jack under and pick it up. Mine is a euro model with narrow forks. I find it just perfect for my small shop and don't know how I did without it. The mill base "just" fits on it. A bigger one might not fit as great, or you might have to come from the side.

If you are not comfortable, and diligent the above method does not come without some pucker factor. If you take your time, ensure the blocking is stable and secure, and work methodically it will work out. Rollers are a much safer and easier option IMO. I've used rollers many times, but only the pallet jack once. Roller and a pinch bar can also shift a machine sideways where a pallet jack has you in an austin powers situation if you need to go sideways. Each have their merits.

 

[CWret]

I’m definitely not in the camp about moving a machine. Lathe or mill. Set it - level it- bolt it down - don’t move it!!
I don’t have a lathe (yet). But i went to great lengths to ensure that my RF45 clone (1000 pounds- a relatively small mill compared to a BP or a mid sized lathe) was sitting on a solidly bolted down stand. My home-made stand is well over 300 pounds and is bolted to the concrete floor. I was absolutely certain that when I bolted the mill to the stand it was first shimmed so that tightening the bolts did not induce distortion to the mill base.
Moving it would be a big deal.

 

[Tomc938]

I’m not looking to move my machines “just for fun” but I realize the day will come when I need to be able to move it. I would prefer it on the cement, and if there are slots for prybar, I can work with that.

Thanks again to everyone for the comments. I appreciate the input!!