Improving a seed planter

[Susquatch]

I am interested in improving the functionality of the seed control system of my John Deere 1780 Row Crop Planter.

The discussion was originally hi-jacking too much of another thread about a bicycle frame modification.

Di2 is what shimano calls their electronic shifting components. Junction boxes are the multi port wire connectors.

Thank you. Any chance this could act like a clutch in a chain drive for a planter? Chain is a wee bit bigger than a bike.....

I need to develop an on/off clutch mechanism to control seed metering.

 

[Rauce]

Thank you. Any chance this could act like a clutch in a chain drive for a planter? Chain is a wee bit bigger than a bike.....

Like a one way clutch or engaging and disengaging?

A bicycle freewheel is a one way clutch, if you need something that engage/disengage I can’t think of a bicycle part that would work.

Do you know the chain pitch? Bicycle chains are 1/2” but narrower than 1/2” pitch industrial chains.

 

[Susquatch]

A bicycle freewheel is a one way clutch, if you need something that engage/disengage I can’t think of a bicycle part that would work.

Yep, in fact start stop is what it's all about.

Dang.

 

[trevj]

Thank you. Any chance this could act like a clutch in a chain drive for a planter? Chain is a wee bit bigger than a bike.....

What planter you playing with?

Have seen a fair few projects that used the 12 volt clutch off an air conditioning compressor for such. Cheap, but a bit of effort.

Search "Electric Clutch", and lots of options appear to be out there.

 

[Susquatch]

My planter is a Deere 1780 with 11 15" rows or 6 30" rows. It has the maxemerge pro planter units.

The drive is a chain driven double dog to each planter unit. The dogs can be manually flipped out of the way to disengage each seed unit individually.

I typically use skip rows on row 4 & 8 on every third pass. This leaves the rows the tractor wheels drive on unplanted. No sense wasting seed on plants you will drive on when you spray. This also makes it stupid easy to know where to drive for even uniform spraying after the crop comes up. Some folks call these sprayer rows, some call them tram lines. A rose by any other name......

I get stupid climbing in and out of the tractor to manually flip the dogs for the sprayer rows and again to turn them back on. So I'd like to install electric clutches to do the same thing with a flip of a switch in the tractor cab. If it works well enough, I might even do all 11 rows that way for partial passes and headland mergers.

I feel like someone MUST have done this already and I'm really surprised that there are no kits. But I look each spring after planting when I get reminded of how much I hate dancing with a stupid planter, and I have never found anything.

Another channel in my brain thinks about variable rate planting without the chains on each seed unit. This would allow me to adjust seed rates on the fly. That is what the latest technology does and it would be really cool in my old planter too but well beyond my needs for right now. Right now I have to change sprockets to change seed population.

 

[trevj]

My planter is a Deere 1780 with 11 15" rows or 6 30" rows. It has the maxemerge pro planter units.

The drive is a chain driven double dog to each planter unit. The dogs can be manually flipped out of the way to disengage each seed unit individually.

I typically use skip rows on row 4 & 8 on every third pass. This leaves the rows the tractor wheels drive on unplanted. No sense wasting seed on plants you will drive on when you spray. This also makes it stupid easy to know where to drive for even uniform spraying after the crop comes up. Some folks call these sprayer rows, some call them tram lines. A rose by any other name......

I get stupid climbing in and out of the tractor to manually flip the dogs for the sprayer rows and again to turn them back on. So I'd like to install electric clutches to do the same thing with a flip of a switch in the tractor cab. If it works well enough, I might even do all 11 rows that way for partial passes and headland mergers.

I feel like someone MUST have done this already and I'm really surprised that there are no kits. But I look each spring after planting when I get reminded of how much I hate dancing with a stupid planter, and I have never found anything.

Another channel in my brain thinks about variable rate planting without the chains on each seed unit. This would allow me to adjust seed rates on the fly. That is what the latest technology does and it would be really cool in my old planter too but well beyond my needs for right now. Right now I have to change sprockets to change seed population.

I think you could do worse than to look at what can be done with an Air Conditioning clutch. Guys use them to drive under-hood air compressors, so they can handle some power through them.

Non-vacuum seeder, yes?

Was looking at the vacuum seeder that is on Crown assets and wishing it was closer... Uses an overdriven PTO pulley to drive the fan, as well as to run the alternator that appears to power the various other functions.

As far as Variable rate planting, I have been looking pretty close at the vacuum seeders that the Ukrainians build, for behind two wheel tractors, and such. Keep trying to wrap my head around the concept of using a sensor on each row unit wheel, and using a stepper or servo to vary the spacing of each row as the various turns take place in the field.
The few units that i have seen that approach what the Ukies are selling, are stupid expensive by the time they reach our shores, and it seems...wrong...

Like this..

 

[Susquatch]

I think you could do worse than to look at what can be done with an Air Conditioning clutch. Guys use them to drive under-hood air compressors, so they can handle some power through them.

The drive only has to turn the seed disk. Not a lot of power is being transmitted. I'm sure the a/c clutch is more than strong enough. It's more a matter of available room. The hoppers also have to be removeable. I'll get a few different ones and have a better look at how such a system might be setup.

Non-vacuum seeder, yes?

Actually, it is a vaccum system. MaxEmerge Pro. I'm guessing I don't need to explain how it works. If you know about vacuum seeders you prolly know that already. But to differentiate between the two varieties of vacuum, this is the Deere system with metering disks in each row, not the central drum type shown in your photo.

Was looking at the vacuum seeder that is on Crown assets and wishing it was closer... Uses an overdriven PTO pulley to drive the fan, as well as to run the alternator that appears to power the various other functions.

My vacuum fan is driven by a hydraulic motor driven off one of my 3-way SCVs set to motor control mode. I can control the hydraulic oil flow to change the vacuum level. It's a pretty good system. In fact, I bought a set of precision planting kits a few years ago and returned it because it didn't improve my seed uniformity one iota better than tuning the system did. I was at 88-92 before tuning and I am getting 98-99% now. My corn looks like a perfectly spaced picket fence.

As far as Variable rate planting, I have been looking pretty close at the vacuum seeders that the Ukrainians build, for behind two wheel tractors, and such.

Not sure what you mean by two wheel tractor. All wheel drive vs rear axle only? Or something else? My row crop tractor is a regular front wheel assist tractor. My planter gets pulled behind it.

Keep trying to wrap my head around the concept of using a sensor on each row unit wheel, and using a stepper or servo to vary the spacing of each row as the various turns take place in the field.

I don't really have row unit wheels per-se. Just gauge wheels and they don't turn very reliably at all. So I think I'm better off with two speed wheels and calculate the turning rate changes from them.

The few units that i have seen that approach what the Ukies are selling, are stupid expensive by the time they reach our shores, and it seems...wrong...

Yep, this is exactly where my head is too. The only difference is that I don't really have any curves to plant and even where I do, the curves are so gentle that it doesn't really matter. My limitation is really the planting unit geometry not the seed rate. My units don't swivel so they end up sweeping if I turn too fast.

But the issue is the same. I'd like to be able to change the population rate to compensate for the change in weight on the drive wheels and soft soil pushing as the inputs (seeds and liquid starter fertilizer) get used up and the planter gets lighter.

For now, I'll be thrilled to get just on off for each row.

 

[van123d]

My first thought is an electric PTO clutch from a lawnmower.

Replace the pulley with your chain drive sprocket. Apply 12V and the sprocket will spin, no power and it will idle. They are $200-$300 new but you might be able to salvage some used ones.

 

[Bandit]

Two wheel tractor, single axle, they are a walk behind unit that can pull a small plow etc. behind. Often/always? have tiller handles that come over implement and back to the operator with controls for engine and drive. Appear to be widely used in eastern and Asian countries on small plots/rice paddies etc. Over here, were to be seen in truck gardens and small farms, not so common here now. Have possibly been over taken by 4 wheelers pulling small equipment.
Not sure what you mean by double dog, if it slides on a shaft like a regular dog cluch, would a solenoid be able to move it back and forth? Maybe a small hydraulic cylinder with an electric over hydraulic valve to control.

 

[Susquatch]

My first thought is an electric PTO clutch from a lawnmower.

Yes, this is in my list of potential solutions. I have a clutch like this in both of my lawntractors. My only concern is it's thickness. Otherwise, I'd prolly already have one installed.

Replace the pulley with your chain drive sprocket. Apply 12V and the sprocket will spin, no power and it will idle. They are $200-$300 new but you might be able to salvage some used ones.

To be honest, the planter was 80 grand new at the time and I bought it at a farm auction for 20 grand. My dealer who wouldn't bid against me (ya, there is honour in some circles) turned around and offered me 45 grand for it right then and there. If that's all it would cost, 5 grand all in for 11 of them would be a bargain. It will easily handle the load. Don't know about the duty cycle but guessing that's prolly ok too. The hard part is getting them in there...

 

[Susquatch]

Two wheel tractor, single axle, they are a walk behind unit that can pull a small plow etc. behind. Often/always? have tiller handles that come over implement and back to the operator with controls for engine and drive. Appear to be widely used in eastern and Asian countries on small plots/rice paddies etc. Over here, were to be seen in truck gardens and small farms, not so common here now. Have possibly been over taken by 4 wheelers pulling small equipment.

Ah, I see! So basically a rototiller without the tiller. Ya, that won't work worth crap here. My big row crop tractor is really too small. Before the prices went through the roof I was planning to trade it for a bigger one! A little tiny single axle unit would just dig ruts.

Not sure what you mean by double dog, if it slides on a shaft like a regular dog cluch, would a solenoid be able to move it back and forth? Maybe a small hydraulic cylinder with an electric over hydraulic valve to control.

Similar, but doesn't slide on a shaft. One set of ears simply folds back and is latched so it doesn't engage. There is a gear driven dog on the frame and another dog on each planter unit. The first dog drives the second and the second drives a seed metering disk. They are not on a common shaft. The size of the dog ears allows for a very significant misalignment.

Here is the input gear driven drive dogs. They are the two posts that stick out of the gear. They only turn and cannot be disengaged. This is what I'd like to replace with a clutch of some kind.

Here are three photos of the mating drive dogs on the planter bin. Normal operating position, partly folded as I push them into the latch, and latched in the folded position (disengaged) behind the latch.

 

[140mower]

To be honest, the planter was 80 grand new at the time and I bought it at a farm auction for 20 grand.

Holy crap Batman..... That's a lot of coin to spend on a rock seeder. I thought you guys had it better out that way, but I guess that Shield thingy is just one big rock huh? Out this way they grow in the wild, and if you prefer the round ones, the rivers are chock full of them.... now that the fish are all but gone, there just sitting there doin' nuthin'......

 

[trevj]

Two wheel tractor, single axle, they are a walk behind unit that can pull a small plow etc. behind. Often/always? have tiller handles that come over implement and back to the operator with controls for engine and drive. Appear to be widely used in eastern and Asian countries on small plots/rice paddies etc. Over here, were to be seen in truck gardens and small farms, not so common here now. Have possibly been over taken by 4 wheelers pulling small equipment.
Not sure what you mean by double dog, if it slides on a shaft like a regular dog cluch, would a solenoid be able to move it back and forth? Maybe a small hydraulic cylinder with an electric over hydraulic valve to control.

Yeah, that's the ones. I have a Gravely (in Project 42 1/2 condition) as well as a BCS that I have a tiller and a sickle bar mower for.

Great tools for between small home garden, and full on Farming size plots, and many of the implements that would fit behind them, are of a similar size to those that will fit on a, say, 20 or so HP Compact utility Tractor.

Not a lot of seeding of pretty much anything going on with any regularity around here, primary product is hay for feed. I do have some old Planet Jr stuff that dates back to when my grandfather was a much younger man, but the stuff is not much in the way of precision.

Been keeping an eye out for a Deere 7000/7100 that has been wrapped around a tree, but there seems to be more demand than supply, in the price range I usually shop in... A little cutting and welding, and I can graft together a single or double row planter that will handle field corn or beans, at the scale I wish to run at. That being, mostly own needs, with maybe some sweet corn for the Farmer's Market...

 

[trevj]

Ah, I see! So basically a rototiller without the tiller. Ya, that won't work worth crap here. My big row crop tractor is really too small. Before the prices went through the roof I was planning to trade it for a bigger one! A little tiny single axle unit would just dig ruts.



Similar, but doesn't slide on a shaft. One set of ears simply folds back and is latched so it doesn't engage. There is a gear driven dog on the frame and another dog on each planter unit. The first dog drives the second and the second drives a seed metering disk. They are not on a common shaft. The size of the dog ears allows for a very significant misalignment.

Here is the input gear driven drive dogs. They are the two posts that stick out of the gear. They only turn and cannot be disengaged. This is what I'd like to replace with a clutch of some kind.

View attachment 37924

Here are three photos of the mating drive dogs on the planter bin. Normal operating position, partly folded as I push them into the latch, and latched in the folded position (disengaged) behind the latch.

View attachment 37925
View attachment 37926

View attachment 37927

I wonder if there is an electric actuator that can either be grafted in to operate the lever, or directly operate the dog clutch.

I know that my ATV uses a crappy little wee motor and reduction gears, along with some travel limits built in to it, to shift from 2WD to 4WD. Only uses power when moving from one position to another.

 

[Susquatch]

I'm thinking the best solution is to disconnect the chain from the drive wheels and use a servo drive system that drives the chain for each bin with an Arduino doing the math to drive each servo motor.

I'd have to do some measurements to see if that could really work, but it requires the least amount of additional hardware.

 

[Bandit]

Please note, I have not had a look at a vacuum seeder. If I Am understanding how your vacuum seeder works, it appears the vacuum is on one side of a rotating plate, which has holes in it. Seed sticks to hole and is moved to drop tube and down to ground, into groove and covered by packer wheels. Is there a separate vacuum tube going to each planting unit? If so could vacuum be shut off so seed does not stick to plate, allowing plate to turn, but not meter seed? If so, a valve operated by electric over vacuum could close to stop vacuum to that planting box.

 

[trevj]

I'm thinking the best solution is to disconnect the chain from the drive wheels and use a servo drive system that drives the chain for each bin with an Arduino doing the math to drive each servo motor.

I'd have to do some measurements to see if that could really work, but it requires the least amount of additional hardware.

I did do a bit of looking at electric actuators, and saw a couple that would work well for simply operating the dog clutch that you manually twist. 12v, controllable arc of motion on some, factory set on others. Not super cheap, but an option.

I like the idea of cutting off the vacuum, too.

Or stick a solenoid or servo arm in the bin to knock the seeds off the plate as the plates continue as if they thought things were normal, sort of an excessively effective singulator brush, say...

 

[Susquatch]

Please note, I have not had a look at a vacuum seeder. If I Am understanding how your vacuum seeder works, it appears the vacuum is on one side of a rotating plate, which has holes in it. Seed sticks to hole and is moved to drop tube and down to ground, into groove and covered by packer wheels. Is there a separate vacuum tube going to each planting unit? If so could vacuum be shut off so seed does not stick to plate, allowing plate to turn, but not meter seed? If so, a valve operated by electric over vacuum could close to stop vacuum to that planting box.

I did do a bit of looking at electric actuators, and saw a couple that would work well for simply operating the dog clutch that you manually twist. 12v, controllable arc of motion on some, factory set on others. Not super cheap, but an option.

I like the idea of cutting off the vacuum, too.

Or stick a solenoid or servo arm in the bin to knock the seeds off the plate as the plates continue as if they thought things were normal, sort of an excessively effective singulator brush, say...

I am always very humbled when someone does some research on my behalf. Thank you guys for doing that.

I REALLY LIKE the idea of simply killing the vacuum. I never considered that. The distribution hoses are about 2 inches in diameter and a typical vacuum setting is between 8 and 12 inches of water. It shouldn't be hard to find a 12V electric gate valve.

It isn't without a few problems but they pale compared to automating the dog clutches.

The excessively aggressive singulator is also a cool idea and quite viable I think. I'll investigate that too.

Much research to do now! But there is a bright light at the end of the tunnel where it was pretty dark before.

Thank you BOTH!

 

[6.5 Fan]

Just buy a new planter, the tech they have now should keep you happy for many hours. Don't get excited about the cost, a new 80ft air seeder is pushing 750,000, a new tractor to pull it is 950,000+ or _ a few bucks depending on options. Don't think of it as expense but an investment, someplace to use up those pesky retirement pension cheques.

 

[historicalarms]

Just buy a new planter, the tech they have now should keep you happy for many hours. Don't get excited about the cost, a new 80ft air seeder is pushing 750,000, a new tractor to pull it is 950,000+ or _ a few bucks depending on options. Don't think of it as expense but an investment, someplace to use up those pesky retirement pension cheques.

Cant stop there....then you need the harvester at 1.3 or more now.