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How much power is enough?

M

mikoyan31

Stewie
Good day folks.

As some of you probably saw in my "introduce yourself" thread, I've acquired a line shaft driven Fay and Scott that looks like it's a 14" x 40" machine. I've got some belting and the jack shaft with hangers. What I also have is a 2HP 120/240v single phase motor that looks to be about 1955 vintage. It works, I've pulled it apart and cleaned the bearings of old sludge, etc. But.... What I'm NOT looking forward to is mounting that up in the rafters to drive the jack shaft. Modern equivalents look to be about 1/2 the size and weight of that behemoth.

My question is, for full capacity on a 14x40 lathe, how much is enough power? I've looked at modern 14x40 machines and they appear to be in the 1.5 - 2 HP range. Now I don't know enough to know if those are horribly under powered or if there is some efficiency magic being done in the modern variable speed controls. Also I'm not sufficiently learned about line shaft setups but I would have to think that there is some power transmission loss in the old leather belts, babbitt bearings in the jack shafts and lathe spindle, etc. Also, and this is showing my ignorance on the topic, are motor ratings on the consumed (electrical) energy or on the delivered (mechanical) energy? Thus would a 60 year old 2HP motor deliver equivalent results to a modern one or would it be horribly inefficient? ?

Someday I've got this crazy idea to hook up a 3 phase motor with a VFD to give "infinite" spindle variability.

Thanks folks

Stew
 
I have a Modern Tool 14X40 lathe. It's 2 HP single phase and works for all I do. My friend had a Heavy Duty 14x40 and it is 7.5 HP 3 phase. If your doing non production work and don't have to make 1/4 inch hogging cuts then I think 2 HP would be fine. It's all about time. I have seen a 1920s 16 inch South Bend line shaft machine were the the motor was installed on a shelf cantilevered off the wall slightly above and behind the lathe. The setup seemed to work well. If your not going to be installing other machines that run off of the same line shaft there is really no need to mount the motor in the rafters. If it were me I'd be tempted to mount the motor at floor level and the Jack shaft on the wall above it and behind the lathe. I've seen Camel back drill presses done in that fashion. Might call for some belt guards for safety reasons?

Sounds like you have a fun project. I'd love to see pictures as the project moves along.

CHEERS
 
ducdon said:
I have a Modern Tool 14X40 lathe. It's 2 HP single phase and works for all I do. My friend had a Heavy Duty 14x40 and it is 7.5 HP 3 phase. If your doing non production work and don't have to make 1/4 inch hogging cuts then I think 2 HP would be fine. It's all about time. I have seen a 1920s 16 inch South Bend line shaft machine were the the motor was installed on a shelf cantilevered off the wall slightly above and behind the lathe. The setup seemed to work well. If your not going to be installing other machines that run off of the same line shaft there is really no need to mount the motor in the rafters. If it were me I'd be tempted to mount the motor at floor level and the Jack shaft on the wall above it and behind the lathe. I've seen Camel back drill presses done in that fashion. Might call for some belt guards for safety reasons?

Sounds like you have a fun project. I'd love to see pictures as the project moves along.

CHEERS
Click to expand...

The camel back I got at the same time is set up somewhat as you describe, although the motor is seriously under powered (only 3/4 HP, what came with it) and i REALLY needs new belts. I was thinking rafters because I was considering having the lathe with the tail towards the wall at an angle, consume less floor space in my garage while giving full access to pretty much all sides of the machine. The school/university shops I had access to many many years ago had all the machines out in the floor with benches along the walls. On the other hand I could simply sit parallel to the wall for all I will probably have to access the back of it.

So, as for pictures, here is some of the unloading process.... By the way, excuse the mess, the garage has been a dumping ground since we bought the place 7 years ago and is slowly being put to rights. Want to see us, come any time! Want to see the house/garage/shop? Make an appointment two weeks in advance.... And yes, it's a dirt floor. I've built a leveling wooden platform for the camel back and when I'm happy with it probably fire up the 1950's cement mixer I have and pour a mounting slab for the lathe. At least the dirt doesn't bother my back like standing on concrete does....

Loaded and heading for home.
PXL_20211204_175722122.MP-XL.jpg


Unloading.
PXL_20211205_195648852.MP-XL.jpg


More unloading.
PXL_20211205_202153387-XL.jpg


This was the sketchiest part as it was by my guestimate in the vicinity of 1000 lbs even with the head stock and tail stock removed. No pictures of it suspended in mid air, I lifted it off the bed of the truck, drove out and quickly ran back inside and started lowering it. I didn't want it dangling in mid-air longer than required.
PXL_20211206_013214040.MP-XL.jpg


By the way the star of this show was a 1 1/2 ton "screw lift" that my wife picked up for me at one of the online auctions for $10. The big wheel turns a worm which in turn drives a follower which has the chain "wheels" on the side for the lifting. The major problem was dealing with the excess chain since it of course wanted to go down and tangle in the load being lifted...

Now for some machine porn!
PXL_20211206_015726376.MP-XL.jpg


PXL_20211206_015731702.MP-XL.jpg


PXL_20211206_015740051-XL.jpg


PXL_20211206_015755165-XL.jpg


PXL_20211206_015747280-XL.jpg


PXL_20211210_014621471-XL.jpg


PXL_20211210_014441580-XL.jpg


At some point someone got happy with what looks like a can of stove black and a paint brush. I don't have any plans for a full "restoration" but damn I have got to get that crap off the places it shouldn't be, like filling in the markings on the compound and the handle collars..... It IS marked, just not sure what units yet.
 
Nice. I certainly agree with pouring an independent base for the machines. Dig them in good and deep with good footing. My shop is just a slab floor and it moves around seasonally. It's a pain to keep my machines properly levelled, something essential to doing accurate work.
 
There is a bit of info at lathes.co.uk --


Vintage Machinery only has a little --


Flat belt drives are a whole topic onto themselves and I only know a tiny amount. A bit of "belt dressing" will help with power transmission. It is essentially 'stickum'. (Always never-wracking to apply that while the belt is running!)

Nonetheless, there is a maximum amount of power that a flat belt can deliver. I don't know if your system (4 inch belts?) is capable of 2 hp or not. Maybe somebody else knows?

Also, your babbit bearings won't tolerate high rpm's. AIUI, the larger the shaft (and bearing), the higher the speed it will take. There are also different formulations of babbit and some allow a little higher speed than others. If the machine runs too fast, the babbit will just melt and run out! You'll need to choose your pulley ratios with that max speed in mind.

Looks like tonnes of fun to get that old girl turning again!

Craig
 
I had an old lathe a while back. I used a 2hp DC motor and variable speed controller, with about a 6:1 ratio if i recall on the belt drive. I should have used 10 or 12:1, but used what i had kicking around. The motor lost power at the low end. I used serpentine style ribbed belts.

50887002221_86e5b0cdcb_b.jpg
 
The first lathe i had was an old Barnes with line shaft drive. I mounted the motor and jack shaft on the wall above the lathe rather than up in the rafters, Worked well but the machine is up against a wall so limited access to the back. Unfortunately back in the 80's when i was running the Barnes i didn't take pictures of the setup.
Hope things go well for yo, i like working with vintage machinery.
 
mikoyan31 said:
Good day folks.

As some of you probably saw in my "introduce yourself" thread, I've acquired a line shaft driven Fay and Scott that looks like it's a 14" x 40" machine. I've got some belting and the jack shaft with hangers. What I also have is a 2HP 120/240v single phase motor that looks to be about 1955 vintage. It works, I've pulled it apart and cleaned the bearings of old sludge, etc. But.... What I'm NOT looking forward to is mounting that up in the rafters to drive the jack shaft. Modern equivalents look to be about 1/2 the size and weight of that behemoth.

My question is, for full capacity on a 14x40 lathe, how much is enough power? I've looked at modern 14x40 machines and they appear to be in the 1.5 - 2 HP range. Now I don't know enough to know if those are horribly under powered or if there is some efficiency magic being done in the modern variable speed controls. Also I'm not sufficiently learned about line shaft setups but I would have to think that there is some power transmission loss in the old leather belts, babbitt bearings in the jack shafts and lathe spindle, etc. Also, and this is showing my ignorance on the topic, are motor ratings on the consumed (electrical) energy or on the delivered (mechanical) energy? Thus would a 60 year old 2HP motor deliver equivalent results to a modern one or would it be horribly inefficient? ?

Someday I've got this crazy idea to hook up a 3 phase motor with a VFD to give "infinite" spindle variability.

Thanks folks

Stew
Click to expand...

My first lathe was an antique Barnes lathe with countershafts, and originally came with a seat, treadle, and a set of steam engine castings to get your shop powered up. It was a beautiful lathe but not practical. Currently have a 12x36 that had 2 HP single phase that was sufficient. Not too far off your size.

If you're not up and running now, dont bother with single phase. Goto 3ph, go directly to 3ph, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

2.2 KW VFD and 2 HP 3ph motor can be had for less than $400 CAD plus tax.
 
6.5 Fan said:
The first lathe i had was an old Barnes with line shaft drive. I mounted the motor and jack shaft on the wall above the lathe rather than up in the rafters, Worked well but the machine is up against a wall so limited access to the back. Unfortunately back in the 80's when i was running the Barnes i didn't take pictures of the setup.
Hope things go well for yo, i like working with vintage machinery.
Click to expand...

Dude where did you get yours Barnes lathe? I acquired mine from an old employee who worked at IBM. My friend bought his house from the gentleman and told me that the guy was selling off his equipment. He kept his stuff in pristine condition. I wish I'd have bought his quorn grinder too
 
TorontoBuilder said:
My first lathe was an antique Barnes lathe with countershafts, and originally came with a seat, treadle, and a set of steam engine castings to get your shop powered up. It was a beautiful lathe but not practical. Currently have a 12x36 that had 2 HP single phase that was sufficient. Not too far off your size.

If you're not up and running now, dont bother with single phase. Goto 3ph, go directly to 3ph, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

2.2 KW VFD and 2 HP 3ph motor can be had for less than $400 CAD plus tax.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll bite. Where can I get a 2.2 KW VFD and a 2HP 3phase motor for $400? I'm looking in all the wrong places because I can't seem to get a line on a 2nd hand questionable state 3 phase motor for that price locally. Yeah, I'll end up there in the long run but right now, I have the 1 phase motor. Whatever I cobble together I'll try and make it so I can unbolt/bolt in when the time comes.
 
mikoyan31 said:
Okay, I'll bite. Where can I get a 2.2 KW VFD and a 2HP 3phase motor for $400? I'm looking in all the wrong places because I can't seem to get a line on a 2nd hand questionable state 3 phase motor for that price locally. Yeah, I'll end up there in the long run but right now, I have the 1 phase motor. Whatever I cobble together I'll try and make it so I can unbolt/bolt in when the time comes.
Click to expand...

$400 is a huge budget. If you were in Calgary I would have you set in like few hours under $400.
 
Tom Kitta said:
$400 is a huge budget. If you were in Calgary I would have you set in like few hours under $400.
Click to expand...
Well the east coast must be the coldest side of hell for this. I priced up a single phase 2hp new motor at the local electric motor place. They were going to give me a "deal"because they accidentally got the wrong one in for another customer and call it $650 plus the Queen's shilling.

Edit: I know, 1 phase, 3 phase, apples, oranges.... Still the price difference can't be THAT much....
 
mikoyan31 said:
Okay, I'll bite. Where can I get a 2.2 KW VFD and a 2HP 3phase motor for $400? I'm looking in all the wrong places because I can't seem to get a line on a 2nd hand questionable state 3 phase motor for that price locally. Yeah, I'll end up there in the long run but right now, I have the 1 phase motor. Whatever I cobble together I'll try and make it so I can unbolt/bolt in when the time comes.
Click to expand...
Amazon Prime, new, free delivery, reasonable shipping times on the motor which ships from US warehouse.
New 2 HP 3 Ph motor: $269

New 2.2KW VFD: $122

Wobekuy 2.2KW 3HP 220V Variable Frequency Drive Inverter CNC VFD VSD Single to 3 Phase : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

Wobekuy 2.2KW 3HP 220V Variable Frequency Drive Inverter CNC VFD VSD Single to 3 Phase : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement
www.amazon.ca

Neither of these are affiliate links. The products work as intended and are affordable.
 
You can get motors new online from Canadian supplier, small 2hp 3ph motors start at under $300 CAD, not sure about delivery, maybe free. Delivery within a week via UPS / Fedex.

Check Kajiji and FB, used 3ph 2hp motor should not cost more then $50. At least in AB it never does. Heck for $80 I sell you two!

3ph motors are cheap used as most pp cannot use them at home.
 
Tom Kitta said:
You can get motors new online from Canadian supplier, small 2hp 3ph motors start at under $300 CAD, not sure about delivery, maybe free. Delivery within a week via UPS / Fedex.

Check Kajiji and FB, used 3ph 2hp motor should not cost more then $50. At least in AB it never does. Heck for $80 I sell you two!

3ph motors are cheap used as most pp cannot use them at home.
Click to expand...

Your mileage may vary. they advent of cheap VFDs has made decent used 3PH motors hard to come by in the golden horseshoe. I gave up looking and bought new.
 
Most small horsepower 3ph motors (under 15hp) get thrown in the dumpster now, check you local scrap dealer you can probably buy a motor for scrap price that just needs bearings.
 
YotaBota said:
This is one that a few of us are using with great success to do 1PH to 3PH adaption.
www.emotorsdirect.ca

TECO-Westinghouse L510-203-H3-U | Teco Westinghouse L510-203-H3-U - AC Drive - 3HP CT Rating 230V 3PH Input 230V 3PH Output Chassis L510 Advanced Micro Drive | eMotors Direct | Canada

Teco Westinghouse L510-203-H3-U - AC Drive - 3HP CT Rating 230V 3PH Input 230V 3PH Output Chassis L510 Advanced Micro Drive
www.emotorsdirect.ca www.emotorsdirect.ca
Click to expand...

Unless I'm missing something, the input is also 3 phase on this particular unit. Mind you if it goes up to 599 Hz then you could theoretically get a lot more speed out of a motor than it's nameplate indicates. ;) That said I'm not sure how things like bearings and armatures would hold up at those speeds.

1641648819933.webp

On the availability of motors, at least in New Brunswick. I've found one on Kijiji that is sub 5HP and it's nameplate indicates that it's a 575V motor. I'm not enamored with buying a motor off of Amazon considering the number of fake products floating about.

Anyway,off to snow blow the yard....
 
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