Ex-Cell-O 602 Ram Turret Milling Machine Oil Seal(s)

[RodinPortHope]

Can anyone direct me to a source for oil seals for this old mill. I just bought it and was told by its former owner that I'd need to replace an oil seal that separates the oil reservoir (just below the motor) from the moving parts below it. I take it that after I drain the oil out of it, I'll be lifting the motor and reservoir off the spindle housing. I'm only guessing but I assume the defective seal will be in there someplace. I have something called Manuel #52672 but it doesn't discuss replacement of this oil seal so I'm pretty much guessing what I'll be into. I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone who has done this job before.

 

[Proxule]

I wouldn't even bother searching, I would pull it apart and source one locally. oil seals / lip seals are peanuts from any local bearing supplier.
Gluck

* although it wouldn't hurt to hear from some one who has replaced them on what the numbers are so you can check stock locally.

 

[John Conroy]

Fluidseal has never failed to find me a seal whenever I need one. I'd love to see the inside of an Excello head, it would be great if your posted some pics as you do this project.

Sealing Solution Group - Fluidseal AB

Shop powered by PrestaShop

www.sealsonline.com

 

[LenVW]

Try this guy.

Roy Weidinger - Preston Rebuilt Machinery
385 Dundas Street, Unit 6D
Cambridge, Ontario
(519) 621-4258

Sometimes you have to call a couple times, but he does rebuild a slew of . . .
Ex-Cell-O 602 Vertical Mills.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

CR which stands for Chicago Rawhide are the industrial standard for seals . Seals were made of leather. If the seal is in imperial measurement you have to look it up or if lucky read it off the seal. Or that's what I had to do. But if it's metric, it's super simple, the seal number is outside diameter, shaft diameter and thickness, all in mm. Only raely do manufactures use special seals. I had to buy a Honda part even though it was metric on my pressure washer motor.

 

[Rauce]

Hey, I have this mill and I’ve had the head apart before.

I haven’t had to change that seal but I looked at the manual.

Link: http://manuals.chudov.com/Excello-602-Mill-Manual.pdf

The seal is at the very bottom of the upper head assembly on page 14. The mfg part number doesn’t turn up anything when I google it but the bearing that accompanies it is a 6008 (40mm ID and 68mm OD) so it shouldn’t be hard to find at any bearing supplier. It’s a single lip rubber seal with a metal outer component.

When you refill the reservoir it takes regular ATF btw.

 

[RodinPortHope]

Hey, I have this mill and I’ve had the head apart before.

I haven’t had to change that seal but I looked at the manual.

Link: http://manuals.chudov.com/Excello-602-Mill-Manual.pdf

The seal is at the very bottom of the upper head assembly on page 14. The mfg part number doesn’t turn up anything when I google it but the bearing that accompanies it is a 6008 (40mm ID and 68mm OD) so it shouldn’t be hard to find at any bearing supplier. It’s a single lip rubber seal with a metal outer component.

When you refill the reservoir it takes regular ATF btw.

Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the reply. I have that manual. The part of the machine I'm working on is everything below that oil tank/reservoir. We just lifted the motor with that gearbox and reservoir off and went from there. So there is a long shaft, splined for a foot or so at the top end with a double set of upper bearings (SKF 7206B) followed by an 8" long sleeve and two more bearings lower down towards the end of the spindle. First comes an SKF 7208 B with upper case letters PG stamped next to the number. Then there is a two part spacer collar followed by a final bearing, slightly narrower and having a larger ID inner race SKF 7010C / C7B. I don't know much about bearings - how to tell if they actually need to be replaced, but figured once they are pressed off and in my hand, they might as well be replaced with new ones that are certain to be "good".
So I was able to source the first three but SKF 7010C / C7B is turning out to be a no show at two bearings shops in Peterborough. Both countermen phoned SKF and got the same not available from their customer service reps.
So, If I can find a new one of those, I'll be on my way, but if I can't, what do you think about putting this one back in. There is certainly noting obviously wrong with it but both shops told me there is no way of knowing and remined me of what was involved in taking this thing apart.

That's the first bit. I've never used this mill and only saw it running for a minute. The fellow who sold it to me said that that it was working A-1 but had an oil leak that made oil drip on the work surface. I figured while I was waiting for the Phase-A-Matic phase converter to arrive, I'd get the oil problem sorted. To make a long story short, the actual reason I have this thing apart is to address the oil dripping problem around the spindle. I thought we were going to find an oil seal on the shaft bellow the bearings but did not. The drawing in the manual is so fuzzy I didn't actually figure out what part I was looking for until I got it apart.

Anyway, an old farmer friend told me to pack the bearings with good high pressure grease, put it back together and use thicker oil.
Any suggestions? about the bearing? About the oil seal?
Any comments will be appreciated.

 

[Downwindtracker2]

The 72xx is a thrust bearing that can do light radian loads. They are common. With the 70xxC , I broke down and looked in my Koyo book, as I didn't recognize the number. It's an angular contact bearing like the 72XX with machined retainer unlike the 72xx which has a pressed steel retainer. A better class of bearing. Both are metric. It a machine tool, not a old farm implement . Avoid at all costs Korean bearings, stick with Japanese.

 

[Proxule]

Many a bearing failure has happened because of OVER LUBRICATION, Grease specifically.
So no I would not PACK the bearing to death, There are online calculators for bearing dimensions.
I I amazed how little grease my P4 class bearing in my ingar surface grinder took.

I want to say yours are C7 ANSI, P4 equivalent.

I would aim for 30-35% free space of bearing to be packed with grease. I use a large syringe and squirt it in, between the balls.

Aim to get some quality bearing grease in there, perhaps chevron SRI or something form kluber?
Bearing preload on AC bearing is as important as grease it self.

I would not hesitate to re-grease the old bearings, AFTER I inspected each ball and raceways with a jewelers loop.
Look for flaking or cracking or shiny dull spots etc etc.
A good article on this topic and what to look for, https://evolution.skf.com/white-etching-cracks-a-consequence-not-a-root-cause-of-bearing-failure/

If all is well, grease up and fire it back in.

gluck

 

[Rauce]

Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the reply. I have that manual. The part of the machine I'm working on is everything below that oil tank/reservoir. We just lifted the motor with that gearbox and reservoir off and went from there. So there is a long shaft, splined for a foot or so at the top end with a double set of upper bearings (SKF 7206B) followed by an 8" long sleeve and two more bearings lower down towards the end of the spindle. First comes an SKF 7208 B with upper case letters PG stamped next to the number. Then there is a two part spacer collar followed by a final bearing, slightly narrower and having a larger ID inner race SKF 7010C / C7B. I don't know much about bearings - how to tell if they actually need to be replaced, but figured once they are pressed off and in my hand, they might as well be replaced with new ones that are certain to be "good".
So I was able to source the first three but SKF 7010C / C7B is turning out to be a no show at two bearings shops in Peterborough. Both countermen phoned SKF and got the same not available from their customer service reps.
So, If I can find a new one of those, I'll be on my way, but if I can't, what do you think about putting this one back in. There is certainly noting obviously wrong with it but both shops told me there is no way of knowing and remined me of what was involved in taking this thing apart.

That's the first bit. I've never used this mill and only saw it running for a minute. The fellow who sold it to me said that that it was working A-1 but had an oil leak that made oil drip on the work surface. I figured while I was waiting for the Phase-A-Matic phase converter to arrive, I'd get the oil problem sorted. To make a long story short, the actual reason I have this thing apart is to address the oil dripping problem around the spindle. I thought we were going to find an oil seal on the shaft bellow the bearings but did not. The drawing in the manual is so fuzzy I didn't actually figure out what part I was looking for until I got it apart.

Anyway, an old farmer friend told me to pack the bearings with good high pressure grease, put it back together and use thicker oil.
Any suggestions? about the bearing? About the oil seal?
Any comments will be appreciated.

The seal is a cheap part to replace, do it! Also if I recall correctly there is a sealing surface where the lower and upper parts of the head meet. Use some kind of oil rated sealant on that face like silicone or permatex.

Spindle bearings is another story… definitely don’t pack them full of grease, they’ll overheat at higher speeds.

There’s a chance that bearings were ok before but they can be easily damaged by disassembly or improper assembly.

Regarding preload, it’s fixed in this spindle design. The spacers between the bearings that contact the inner and outer race will be slightly different in length, like by a few tenths. This sets the preload when the assembly is tightened together. For this reason if you get replacement bearings they need to have the same internal clearance specification as the originals. They also need to be installed in the correct orientation as each angular contact bearing is designed for axial loads in one direction.

An all new set of spindle bearings of C7 precision (4 total) will probably run you $500-1000.

 

[Proxule]

More importantly when they heat up or overheat. It will sling most or all of the grease out. Making your efforts all for not!

Spindle bearings is another story… definitely don’t pack them full of grease, they’ll overheat at higher speeds.

 

[Six O Two]

If you get stuck for the bearings, you can also try H&W repair out of the states. They sell rebuild kits for 602s, so they might stock and be willing to sell you the bearings you're missing. Rebuilding my 602 is on the list of things I haven't got to yet...

Rebuild Kit for Ex - Cell - O 602 | RBK-602

Rebuild Kit for Ex-Cell-O This kit includes the following: 1922V321 Drive Belt (1) 6210 Bearing (1) 6010 Bearing (1) 6007 Bearing (1) 6000 Bearing (1) 6008 Bearing (2) 6205 Bearing (2) EP-1 Grease (2) This kit does not include bushings, bushing for Excello are now obsolete Individual items in...

machinerypartsdepot.com

 

[RodinPortHope]

If you get stuck for the bearings, you can also try H&W repair out of the states. They sell rebuild kits for 602s, so they might stock and be willing to sell you the bearings you're missing. Rebuilding my 602 is on the list of things I haven't got to yet...

Rebuild Kit for Ex - Cell - O 602 | RBK-602

Rebuild Kit for Ex-Cell-O This kit includes the following: 1922V321 Drive Belt (1) 6210 Bearing (1) 6010 Bearing (1) 6007 Bearing (1) 6000 Bearing (1) 6008 Bearing (2) 6205 Bearing (2) EP-1 Grease (2) This kit does not include bushings, bushing for Excello are now obsolete Individual items in...

machinerypartsdepot.com

I spoke to them today. A very knowledgeable woman there said she'd look into it and get back to me but a snow storm was closing in and they were shutting down the shop early. Sounded like they were going to be able to suggest something.

 

[RodinPortHope]

Try this guy.

Roy Weidinger - Preston Rebuilt Machinery
385 Dundas Street, Unit 6D
Cambridge, Ontario
(519) 621-4258

Sometimes you have to call a couple times, but he does rebuild a slew of . . .
Ex-Cell-O 602 Vertical Mills.

I'll try him again tomorrow. Thanks

 

[RodinPortHope]

The seal is a cheap part to replace, do it! Also if I recall correctly there is a sealing surface where the lower and upper parts of the head meet. Use some kind of oil rated sealant on that face like silicone or permatex.

Spindle bearings is another story… definitely don’t pack them full of grease, they’ll overheat at higher speeds.

There’s a chance that bearings were ok before but they can be easily damaged by disassembly or improper assembly.

Regarding preload, it’s fixed in this spindle design. The spacers between the bearings that contact the inner and outer race will be slightly different in length, like by a few tenths. This sets the preload when the assembly is tightened together. For this reason if you get replacement bearings they need to have the same internal clearance specification as the originals. They also need to be installed in the correct orientation as each angular contact bearing is designed for axial loads in one direction.

An all new set of spindle bearings of C7 precision (4 total) will probably run you $500-1000.

Thanks for this. I got 3 of the four from local supplier Peterborough Bearings ($327 CAD) and the forth , apparently an oddball is on order from from H&W Machine Repair and Rebuilding (hwmachinereapir.com) in Ft. Wayne IN. for USD$212 + so your estimate was good. They apparently come pre-packed so no place for me to mess up there.
As for the oil seal, I'm still trying to figure out what that's all about. I've attached two images taken from P. 20 and 21 of the 602 Manual I have.
They first shows the taper and a part # 52-11903 which the second image , a parts list identifies as a Seal Ring.
I couldn't get anything from the bearing people and don't even know what it is I'm looking for. I just know having removed the spindle, I don't have it. Any suggestions?

 

[Rauce]

Thanks for this. I got 3 of the four from local supplier Peterborough Bearings ($327 CAD) and the forth , apparently an oddball is on order from from H&W Machine Repair and Rebuilding (hwmachinereapir.com) in Ft. Wayne IN. for USD$212 + so your estimate was good. They apparently come pre-packed so no place for me to mess up there.
As for the oil seal, I'm still trying to figure out what that's all about. I've attached two images taken from P. 20 and 21 of the 602 Manual I have.
They first shows the taper and a part # 52-11903 which the second image , a parts list identifies as a Seal Ring.
I couldn't get anything from the bearing people and don't even know what it is I'm looking for. I just know having removed the spindle, I don't have it. Any suggestions?

My machine is R8 so slightly different but what they call a seal ring is a slightly knurled cap of sorts at the bottom of the spindle. Not sure if there’s any rubber or felt sealing element in it, it’s been a while since I had it off on mine. There shouldn’t be any oil in the spindle so it’s not a seal to keep oil in.

The oil seal that keeps the oil in the gear box above from running down into the spindle is the one I pointed out in my earlier post. It’s pressed into the bottom of the gearbox. Item 116 here:

 

[macmanjpd]

I'm also hunting for the elusive "seal ring." My 602 mill is an R8 version so the part number is 52-11896- My mill did not contain anything in this location so I don't even have an old part to measure and go off of. Did you ever find anything for your mill? If so was it metal, elastomeric or fabric (felt)? thanks in advance.