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CT 043 issues ..... Repairs - Completed !!

Gearhead88

Gearhead88

Super User
So , a bit of a long story ..............

I bought a Craftex CT043 in 2004 , a B048 knee mill too and a pile of tooling , all on the same day .

A short time later , like , within a month the electric motor went out on the lathe , no big deal , warranty covered it and I changed it out myself . The lathe has run very well without issues since , until last month .

I was in the middle of making a part for my boring bar and the lathe started acting weird , the motor would not start , it would just hum , it would start if you helped it with a hand , It seemed down on power . It would not run in reverse either , same thing , just a hum . I decided to stop for the evening .
This is similar to what had happened when it was still new , and a motor change got the machine running again back then . I assumed with out checking anything else that I might need to change the motor and went ahead and ordered one from the Busy Bee store here . A couple of weeks later the motor arrived and I installed it .................. hmmmm .....
Problem was still there !!!, my wallet was lighter to the tune of $360 .

The manual I got when I purchased the machine is poor at best , the way it is translated into chinglish is almost comical.
There is a wiring diagram but it's not real detailed and could possibly be a generic version that I'm thinking isn't exactly what I have in the electrical box on this one.
I should consider myself lucky , the machine that replaces this one (CX 707 ) has the same lame manual as this one except there is no wiring diagram at all .

I know there are several Chi - Com 12 x 36 lathes that share the construction and layout as this one so I went online and found two good manuals very quickly , saved them to my desktop , found the wiring diagrams and printed some pages to study .

I believe there are issues with the contactors and possibly the thermal overload relay , based on what I have discovered inside the electrical box.

What I'm trying to find out here is if anyone has encountered similar problems with a lathe such as this one and what it took to resolve the issue.

IMG_1319.JPG

The inside of the electrical box

IMG_1318.JPG

The thermal overload relay

Schematic inside electrical box.jpg


The wiring diagram on the inside of the electrical box door
 
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In the first picture there are three contactors , KM1 , KM2 & KA . When you power up the lathe , by plugging it in , KA becomes energized , the transformer and the 24 volt control circuits are also energized , KA gives a solid click . When I say power up , I mean plug in the machine or turn on the breaker , my garage only has the one 220 volt outlet so whatever machine I'm using gets plugged in at that time , the lathe , the knee mill or the welder. There isn't a master power switch on the front control panel , just an emergency stop , a jog button and a power on lamp .
I'm not happy with this arrangement , the transformer & KA contactor remain on the entire time the lathe has power supplied to it.

When you try to turn on the lathe , as mentioned before the motor just hums and doesn't turn , forward or reverse.

I believe the KM1 contactor is reverse and the KM2 contactor is forward . I believe the issue is with the forward contactor and possibly the thermal overload relay , but my understanding of this arrangement is still cloudy.
Not 100% sure on the relay though , I don't really know what it's function is , how it works or what the correct operation of the reset buttons and adjustable dial .
Because the electrical box is such a pain in the butt to get to where the lathe is bolted down , yesterday I removed the box so I could work on it on the bench.

I was able to find a replacement contactor on ebay , I've ordered two and recieved those , they were inexpensive .
I had to look very hard to find the thermal overload relay , I wasn't able to find an exact match but found one that is real close on ebay , that's on the way from China.

I've been busy with other projects and up until yesterday I`ve not worked on the Lathe for several days , I'm waiting for the relay to arrive.

I was somewhat disappointed in Busy Bee for the lack of support in helping me sort this out , Apparently , " due to the age of the machine ", they can not supply any of the parts I require . They were successful in showing me how a sales floor guy can get that far away , deer in the headlights look while you are trying to explain why you are in the store. This lathe really hasn't changed much since being replaced by it's latest version , I'm guessing the electrical is the same , guessing because when I downloaded the manual for that machine there wasn't a wiring diagram in the book. The machine they have on the floor is parked back to back with another lathe so you can not open the electrical panel and peek inside.

So , can anyone offer any words of encouragement or advice , like maybe I'm on the right track ....... or an attaboy ...... keep up the good work ?
 
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TorontoBuilder said:
STOP!

Dont do another thing until you pause and think this thru.

I have a very very similar electrical cabinet and components in my CT041 lathe. I have worked on the electrical system many times and just completed a conversion to 3ph 2HP motor with a VFD. I can suggest a few things to test. BUT if you go willy nilly prodding the contactors you can fry your new motor.

Let me get you better wiring diagram to start. While I do that read my post that speaks about the control cycle of these lathes.

canadianhobbymetalworkers.com

Shop relocation and lathe VFD installation

I'm going to post a few do as I say not as I do pics, along with the caveat, DONT DO THIS with a hoist: My brother and I used to live on the same street, 4 townhouses apart. Limited space in each ground level basement meant we split our shop between the two spaces. We had to relocate our shop...
canadianhobbymetalworkers.com canadianhobbymetalworkers.com
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Talk about paying it forward John! Welcome to the forum.
 
Gearhead88 said:
In the first picture there are three contactors , KM1 , KM2 & KA . When you power up the lathe , KA energizes the transformer and the 24 volt control circuits , that one gives a solid click . When I say power up , I mean plug in the machine or turn on the breaker , my garage only has the one 220 volt outlet so whatever machine I'm using gets plugged in at that time , the lathe , the knee mill or the welder. There isn't a master power switch on the front control panel , just a emergency stop , an inching button and a power on lamp.
When you try to turn on the lathe , as mentioned before the motor just hums and doesn't turn , forward or reverse.
I believe the KM1 contactor is reverse and the KM2 contactor is forward . You can watch KM2 arcing inside when trying to start the lathe in forward , also , you can visibly see the KM2 has some smokey residue like deposits around the I/O lever . I believe the issue is with the forward contactor and possibly the thermal overload relay .
Not 100% sure on the relay though , I don't really know what it's function is , how it works or what the correct operation of the reset buttons and adjustable dial .
Because the electrical box is such a pain in the butt to get to where the lathe is bolted down , yesterday I removed the box so I could work on it on the bench.

I was able to find an exact replacement contactor on ebay , I've ordered two and recieved those , they were inexpensive .
I had to look very hard to find the thermal overload relay , Due to the age of the machine I wasn't able to find an exact match but found one that is real close on ebay , that's on the way from China.

I've been busy with other projects and have not worked on the Lathe for a few days , I'm waiting for the relay to arrive

So , can anyone offer any words of encouragement or advice , like maybe I'm on the right track ....... or an attaboy ...... keep up the good work ?
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Unfortunately I will be about as much help as Busy Bee Tools...zero, zilch, nada, nothing.
However FWIW, the wiring diagram on my Craftex lathe (cx700) was incorrect in one detail, it was mostly right but as you know just one small change in wiring can be significant. I was not electrically smart enough to pick up the mistake myself but a hired electronics repair guy identified it for me.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your schematic but I would not take much from the manufacturer as gospel truth.
 
Usually motor starting by hand means there is problem with the capacitors or at most of the starting wiring. Easy to test, run it outside of the lathe. Since you now have two motors do it. Just connect them to 240V and run.

Now since this is REVERSING system the reverse switches two wires. This switching mechanism could have died. When I wired my drum switch in mayford lathe I made a mistake. I connected wrong wires. Result was motor humming (both forward and reverse).

So the reverser may have given a ghost. But first test both motors connecting them to 240v in one direction. I bet they both run. Sorry for wasting 360 CAD.
 
Tom Kitta said:
Usually motor starting by hand means there is problem with the capacitors or at most of the starting wiring. Easy to test, run it outside of the lathe. Since you now have two motors do it. Just connect them to 240V and run.

Now since this is REVERSING system the reverse switches two wires. This switching mechanism could have died. When I wired my drum switch in mayford lathe I made a mistake. I connected wrong wires. Result was motor humming (both forward and reverse).

So the reverser may have given a ghost. But first test both motors connecting them to 240v in one direction. I bet they both run. Sorry for wasting 360 CAD.
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What is odd is , I was using the lathe , for over 17 years , one day , while using it this started happening.. I`ll try the motor that came off of it on the bench when I get a chance.
 
I spoke with the store manager here in Calgary today , It took several weeks to get a straight answer out of them , while we were on the phone she suggested I call customer service . I thanked her for calling me back and told her I`ll figure this out one way or another .
trlvn said:
AIUI, only the Concord location in Ontario has anybody that could be considered technical support. Try calling them.

Craig
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TorontoBuilder said:
You could have converted to 3 phase for that money.

Contactors wear out, especially chinese ones where they use the least amount of metal for the contact points for low voltage duty.

One question though. You tried to start in both forward and reverse correct? I can't assume anything... :)
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Yes , I tried forward and reverse , also I didn`t do anything foolish , just test some voltage value`s and try and get it started , I had the overload relay disconnected from KM1 to look at it and then put it back in position , I played with the reset buttons a bit , in the picture you can see I messed with buttons.

I have two of the CN6 contactors new , the plan was replace the one that is bad , the other would be a spare .
 
If this were my lathe, and since you can spin it to get it going, the first thing I'd check would be the capacitors. The time it has run without problems strengthens that possibility because caps fail when they are new or over a long period of time.

Not saying that it's not something else. Just sayin it's easy to check caps.
 
TorontoBuilder said:
That was my first thought since I had to replace our capacitors but that would not explain the issue with the new motor, unless he had to swap the capacitors over which is highly unlikely but I wont assume anything when it comes to busy bee. There is a reason I did not buy a new motor from them
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I was going to go through that possibility too but figured it just made my post too long. Long posts are one of my faults.

Too many times in my life, I've made the mistake of believing that a new part is a good part.

In other words, nothing says the new motor didn't come with bad caps too. It just happened on my air conditioner fan motor this past summer. Old motor fried. New motor didn't work. New Caps were bad from the factory. Put the old caps on the new motor. Worked great. Ordered new caps anyway cuz the ones prolly won't last.

Bottom line - easy to check them. So why not check them. Got nothing to lose.
 
I guess, while I'm at it, I should add another thought. Overvthe course of my career I learned lots of things but three of the most important were "connections connections connections". More often than not a bad connection was the problem. It's possible that your original problem was a connection and it has come back. It's another thing that's easy to check. Make sure all the connections are good with zero resistance - especially all those contactor connections. But check everything. And make sure your grounds are good too.

It's an easy thing to do. And you might be surprised to see what you find. And if it's not a problem, at least you checked for it.
 
Update on my lathe ...................... it's still broken.

I'm both disappointed and unhappy.

Here's what's happened since I last posted.

I waited a while for parts , the contactors arrived but there is a set of poles on them that are normally open and I need contactors that have that set of poles normally closed , it appears that the description on ebay did not clearly show the configuration , my order was based on me assuming the CN-6 on the box was the part number .

A lot of this could have been avoided if Busy Bee had better product support , better manuals , an actual wiring diagram included with the equipment they sell and people in their store who had a clue.

Also there's a thermal overload relay coming from China that may not be here till march , potentially , that could be incorrect too .

The new motor is still on the lathe . It still just hums when you try to start it.
I have removed the entire control box to work on it on the bench and found that the contactors I bought from ebay are not the correct part even though the packaging and labeling made it appear that I was buying the right parts. The control box is back on the lathe , it's been on and off a few times.
The original contactors are still mounted in the control box. I still believe one or more of them are bad.
The control circuits on the lathe are operational , power light , "E" stop , jog switch ? not sure on that one the motor doesn't run , I've never used the jog switch before , the forward & reverse switches work.
I made a wiring diagram of the electrical circuits , so I could figure out how it all works , having said that , I still do not understand how the contactors work , what poles do what ? .
Not sure what my next move is , I've ordered capacitors in case I need them , they are cheap and should be here Wednesday . I'm not sure how to test a capacitor.

And ......... there's you're update in case anyone was hoping I'd report back .

Not good news and I'm pretty much done with Busy Bee , I may go in there to buy the odd thing from time to time but will never buy any machinery there again. I pretty much have bought every machine tool accessory they sell over the last twenty years I've shopped there
 
I have not tried that yet ( hangs head in shame) , i'm thinking , I better get the connections right so I don't ruin the new motor
 
Yes , I'm taking a break from this till tomorrow , at that time I will try n' figure out what connections need to be made .

I'm kinda pissed that I picked the wrong contactors off ebay
 
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