Atlas 618 "Armature Lathe"

[torinwalker]

Found this cute little lathe in Oakville from a guy who collects junk left over from renovations (or possibly in lieu of payment). Says he's "waiting to clean it up" and doesn't know what it's worth.

Anyone care to guess what this package is worth? It's an Atlas 618 "Armature" Lathe with original everything:

Atlas "Instructions and Parts Booklet"
Atlas "Lathe Operation and Machine Tables" Manual (about 1" thick and probably describes everything one can do on this lathe.)
4" 3-jaw chuck with both sets of jaws
4" 4-jaw chuck
6" faceplate
All change gears
Lantern-style tool post
4-way screw-down tool post
MT 1 dead center
MT 1 drill chuck (I'd guess good for up to 3/8)
Takes MT-1 tapers
Complete set of change gears
Two little double-keyed bushings (probably also related to change gears)
Four spanners, two of which fit the era, two that were probably added later.
110V motor - I didn't check the HP, but based on the size, I'd say 1/3 to more probably 1/2 HP

Overall, I'd say the lathe is in excellent condition aside from the little handles being broken off the cross-slide - an exercise in repair left to the purchaser, no doubt.

 

[DPittman]

I think market value of those are higher than what they are worth. I'd say around $1000 for what you listed. You called it an "armature lathe" but I did not see the chucks or the mica undercut that makes it an armature turning lathe.

Parts new or used are atrociously priced. Yes, you can actually buy some brand new parts for them....at least you could 5-6 years ago. Parts for my 5 old Asian lathe are hard to find but a 60 year old American made lathe there are still some available.... something huh?

I have one (in storage) myself and they are a great lathe to start with, although there are very skilled craftsmen that have turned out some amazing and precise projects using them.

Personally, I would be willing to pay a similar amount for a GOOD and complete 618 that I could get a 7x12/7x14 Asian made lathe for.

 

[DPittman]

Oh ya... it appears that the lathe in the picture has the babbit lead headstock bearings, these can be okay if they are in good shape but are not as preferred as the newer Timmkin roller bearings.

 

[torinwalker]

I mentioned "my brother's budget" being under $500 (which as it turns out is much lower than even that) and the guy was surprisingly interested. I already have a big lathe - I was interested in this one for my brother, until you mentioned babbit bearings.

How can you tell it has the older bearings?


Torin...

 

[torinwalker]

I just zoomed in on the photo of the lathe pamphlet and you're right on the 1st count as well; On the cover of the pamphlet, the first lathe illustration is the 618 "bench" lathe, and the ones below called "armature" lathes are marked 12A and 16A. I should have looked more closely at the pamphlet rather than taking the guy's word.

I can't change the forum topic now though either, I'm afraid.

 

[trlvn]

Hey! I've got a 618. @DPittman good catch on the babbit bearings. That probably means the lathe dates from the 1930's. There is a guy keeping track of serial numbers and can tell the approximate age of the machine (+/- about 2 years). He can be contacted via the Yahoo group or Hobby Machinist.

The book is usually referred to as "MOLO"--the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations. There were over a dozen editions over the years. Presumably that is one of the early ones if it came with the late.

That machine does look in darn good condition. I think $1,000 is quite optimistic since it is a change gear lathe. And doesn't have a modern tool post. And it needs a sturdier bench to mount it. OTOH, I imagine someone would grab it for $600. Maybe somebody would be willing to go to $750?

If the guy wants to sell parts, I might be interested in the 3-jaw.

Craig

 

[DPittman]

I mentioned "my brother's budget" being under $500 (which as it turns out is much lower than even that) and the guy was surprisingly interested. I already have a big lathe - I was interested in this one for my brother, until you mentioned babbit bearings.

How can you tell it has the older bearings?


Torin...

Sorry I should not have sounded so positive on my identification of the bearings....it should have been more of a question. It appears to me it has the smaller bearing block around the headstock than mine which has the timkens bearings. I'm looking at picture on my tiny phone screen so can not tell for sure.

 

[trlvn]

I was interested in this one for my brother, until you mentioned babbit bearings.

How can you tell it has the older bearings?

I believe I see a bolt holding the cap on top of the babbit bearing, just behind the chuck. That's the tip off.

Craig

 

[trlvn]

BTW, babbit isn't the end of the world. As long as they're kept oiled, they last a very long time. It is possible to repour the bearings. Lots of videos on YouTube showing the process...not that I've actually done it!

Craig

 

[DPittman]

Hey! I've got a 618. @DPittman good catch on the babbit bearings. That probably means the lathe dates from the 1930's. There is a guy keeping track of serial numbers and can tell the approximate age of the machine (+/- about 2 years). He can be contacted via the Yahoo group or Hobby Machinist.

The book is usually referred to as "MOLO"--the Atlas Manual of Lathe Operations. There were over a dozen editions over the years. Presumably that is one of the early ones if it came with the late.

That machine does look in darn good condition. I think $1,000 is quite optimistic since it is a change gear lathe. And doesn't have a modern tool post. And it needs a sturdier bench to mount it. OTOH, I imagine someone would grab it for $600. Maybe somebody would be willing to go to $750?

If the guy wants to sell parts, I might be interested in the 3-jaw.

Craig

Yes $1000 is optimistic/overpriced Alberta pricing! I would say if you can get it for $500 then it would be a good deal.

 

[torinwalker]

Thanks everyone. My brother and I bought a milling machine together about 20 years ago but I ended up with it and he went forges, anvils and english wheels instead. He mentioned recently that he was thinking about a lathe, so I've been on the lookout for something small - like a 7x12, possibly a taig lathe, or this one. Between the three, I think this one would be the better deal, if I could get it for under $500. The 7x12's have plastic gears, if I'm not mistaken, which makes this a better lathe in my opinion. I'm trying not to let the Babbit bearings bother me. As for the toolpost, I'd call the lantern style old, and the 4-way modern. But more modern than that? I don't think this lathe is worth investing in a QTP - better to grow out of this lathe quickly and get a better one. But that's my opinion... I went from using a BusyBee B2227L (fantastic lathe even if from China) to a Do-All-branded Romi lathe, so I'm spoiled.

 

[trlvn]

Just so you know, the gear train in these lathes is largely made of Zamak--not steel. Look them over closely for badly worn or broken teeth. Note that there is a semi-hidden pin that locks the bull gear to the pulley in the headstock. It has to be disengaged before engaging the back gears.

There are a few other points of wear to think about. The compound and the cross slide screws engage into brass nuts. The brass wears over time (leading to backlash) and may need to be replaced. The half-nuts on lead screw provide both longitudinal feed and threading. The half-nuts were redesigned at some point (resized from 1/2" to 5/8") and the new ones are pretty much all you can buy these days. If it hasn't already been done, the lathe would need the new bracket as well as the half-nuts.

Inspect the lead screw closely, especially the first few inches ahead of the chuck. If the Acme threads are thinning out, that would be a major repair. You can even mike the thickness and width of the bed to map out the wear.

The countershaft bearings are oilite sleeves. They may be worn out--especially if not oiled every day. Should be simple and cheap to replace if necessary.

Regarding the tool post, I put a QCTP on mine. The lathe doesn't have the power or rigidity to use carbide tooling effectively. I found it really painful to shim HSS cutters up to centre height. Shars offers a 0XA size QCTP set for not that much money so I did that. I figure that if/when I sell the lathe, it will make it worth more.

Craig

 

[DPittman]

Don't let babbit bearings scare you off especially if they have always been well oiled. As another member mentioned already they can even be made like new if necessary.
I put a quick change post on my 618 and felt it was money well spent for convenience reasons.

 

[torinwalker]

So this brings up an interesting question (two actually) - assuming the headstock is held in place by these soft metal bearings, would one need to a) run it slow (or very slow?) and b) take very (very, very?) light cuts? We're talking under 500 rpm and DOC of .01 or less (on steel), are we not? I recently saw Abom79 visit some guy's welding shop where he had an Atlas lathe and tried taking .075 cuts and stalled the motor... they guy, surprised that he would push the lathe like that, remarked that he rarely went beyond .03,

Torin...

 

[DPittman]

So this brings up an interesting question (two actually) - assuming the headstock is held in place by these soft metal bearings, would one need to a) run it slow (or very slow?) and b) take very (very, very?) light cuts? We're talking under 500 rpm and DOC of .01 or less (on steel), are we not? I recently saw Abom79 visit some guy's welding shop where he had an Atlas lathe and tried taking .075 cuts and stalled the motor... they guy, surprised that he would push the lathe like that, remarked that he rarely went beyond .03,

Torin...

Yes babbit bearings are better suited to lower speeds but I imagine that proper lubrication on them will allow the Atlas 618 to run at its top speed with no problems, but I have not personally used them myself.
I don't think good babbit bearings will be the limiting factor on the depth of cut you can take on the 618, the overall rigidity and power will be the limiting factor. 0.75" cuts won't be happening.

 

[torinwalker]

I said .075 (which I'm sure is what you meant to type), and it was aluminum. He dialed it down to .06" (.03 per side) and the lathe was able to maintain the cut without stalling.

 

[DPittman]

I said .075 (which I'm sure is what you meant to type), and it was aluminum. He dialed it down to .06" (.03 per side) and the lathe was able to maintain the cut without stalling.

Yes I did mean to say .075" but missed that because I'm so worried about my phone auto correcting "babbit headstock" into "rabbit feedstock" or some similar non sense! LOL.
Yes .030" depth of cut should be possible with sharp hss tooling as long as the diameter of the material does not get very large.

 

[trlvn]

That brings up another limitation of the Atlas lathes--the tiny dials! My eyes aren't that horrible (OK, I'm 60) but I can't read either the cross-slide or compound dials without magnification. I really want to set up a dial indicator or digital calliper to monitor depth of cut with at least the cross slide.

Re stalling the machine, it is going to be a fact of life. It was designed for a 1/3 HP motor. It uses 3L belts (3/8" wide). And it is better to have the belts slip rather than strip all the Zamak gears! I don't think I've ever done a 0.030" cut in steel with mine--probably 0.020" max. OTOH, I think my 618 has been used pretty hard over the years and is far from tight. That said, I have parted off steel over 1.5" thick with the little guy. The finish after parting was even pretty good!

Another minor point is to check for a steady rest. Maybe the guy has it hidden amongst other stuff?

The jackpot would be if he has the milling attachment. People pay absolutely stupid amounts of money for these on eBay.

Craig

 

[trlvn]

Just so that this thread is not all negative, the 618 offers 16 speeds. With a 1725 RPM motor, the normal, that ranges from 55 to 3,050 RPM. Since it is designed for small work, it is good that the top end is that high when you're working on stuff that is a really small diameter.

With the standard gear set, it can cut threads from 8 to 96 tpi. There is info out on the internet on how to cut metric threads using just the standard gears. Common longitudinal feed rates of 0.0024" to 0.0078" per revolution are available.

Another plus is just the volume of information available out on the internet. Tonnes of it on maintaining or modifying the machines; sources for parts, ideas for upgrades, etc. For example, a guy in Michigan buys old abused machines and sells parts from them. Also has a few newly manufactured parts, etc. Not cheap but a great source. Nice guy.

http://www.mymachineshop.net

And a decent resale market. I think that, on balance, it may be easier to sell a 70-80 year old Atlas than it is to sell, say, a 15-25 year old Asian machine. YMMV.

Craig