ABS Pipe Annular Cutter

[Susquatch]

Our Kitchen sink sprung a leak where the 1-1/2" drain pipe joins into the 4" sewer pipe. Basically, the 45 degree fitting that connects the two pipes broke in half. No idea why but it's the third Y pipe in the house to fail that way. If I had to guess I'd say a bad batch of Y-Pipes.

The other two were easy fixes. I just replaced the whole assembly. This one was not so easy. It broke above the ventilation ducts between joists. The only way to replace the assembly would be to drop the ventilation ducts. I didn't want to do that unless I had to.

So I cut the sink drain pipe out with a 12v reciprocating saw, and then had to remove the rest of the 45. I had thought that would be easy - just crack the glue apart. But as @Dabbler pointed out in a later conversation, the glue isn't really a glue. It fuses the two pipes together. Crap.

I took a step back and decided to cut the top layer off with a hole saw. Didn't work worth crap. Scratch that idea. I'd have used a smaller hole saw as a pilot inside the bigger hole saw but didn't have the right size.

The next thought was to make an annular cutter with a pilot to fit the inside pipe.

The idea was to use the pilot to follow the inside pipe and the cutter to remove the outside pipe by rotating it around the pipe.

The first iteration had a hose clamp holding the cutter to the pilot. Didn't hold. Should have known better.

The second was held in place by 8mm machine screws. That worked. Many guys on here would have welded the parts together. I prefer bolts cuz I can't weld worth crap.

I was in a bit of a hurry so I planned to just turn the unit by hand. If that didn't work I would have machined it to take a 1" socket. Actually it turned out that a pair of Knipex Cobras were needed once in a while but it did the job just fine. With the old 45 gone, I glued a new one in place and added a short extension so I could put a new coupler between rafters.

The scroll lines on the tool are the remnants of the threads on the 1.75" bolt I used to make the tool from. The cutter itself is just left over scrap metal from the motor adapter I made for my mill.

This is a very typical project for me. I regularly make custom tools to repair farm machinery or stuff around the yard and house.

Hopefully sharing the idea might come in handy for others some day.

 

[DPittman]

Basically, the 45 degree fitting that connects the two pipes broke in half. No idea why but it's the third Y pipe in the house to fail that way. If I had to guess I'd say a bad batch of Y-Pipes.

Wow I got to think that is very strange. There should be practically no force on them once installed unless you've got some major house/plumbing shifting going on?

 

[Tecnico]

Well, aren't you clever! That's bound to tally up some brownie points with management too!

You know that each of the trades that comes along after the other goes out of their way to make the job easier by putting their work on top don't you (j/k...).

Nice job, file that away for future use.

D

 

[Hacker]

Good idea. A variable speed right angle drill might have been handy for that job.

 

[Susquatch]

Wow I got to think that is very strange. There should be practically no force on them once installed unless you've got some major house/plumbing shifting going on?

So here is what I think happened in this particular instance.

The holes through the joists for the drain pipe were not properly aligned. The sink drain pipe was forced off center by the last hole before it joined into the bigger toilet drain pipe from upstairs.

Hot and cold seasonal as well as water temperature as well as heat & A/C temp fluctuations in the duct resulted in expansion and contraction of the drain pipe at its stressed location.

20 years of cycling eventually cracked and then failed the pipe connector.

Basically, a perfect storm of bad conditions for the fitting.

Yes, I opened up the hole in the joist...... LOL!

 

[Susquatch]

Good idea. A variable speed right angle drill might have been handy for that job.

Yes, but I don't have one. Had to fit a 12V Milwaukee in there instead. Also a 12V reciprocating saw.

The Milwaukee 12V system is great. Not very powerful but extremely convenient, compact, and handy. I just wish the batteries were more durable.

 

[Susquatch]

That's bound to tally up some brownie points with management too!

Ooooohhhh yaaaaaa!

You know that each of the trades that comes along after the other goes out of their way to make the job easier by putting their work on top don't you (j/k...).

Isn't that the truth. You should see the duct detour around the toilet sewer pipe. The plumber prolly cost the tin knocker a couple of hours! I knew of a tin knocker who would routinely cut everyone else's work out if it was in his way. He ended up going on his own cuz the general contractor could not afford to deal with the aftermath.

 

[curmudgeon]

You know that each of the trades that comes along after the other goes out of their way to make the job easier by putting their work on top don't you (j/k...).

not my photo, but it made me chuckle (and groan)

 

[PeterT]

That's too funny. Isn't this a steel bar (anti-drill-through plate)? We don't want a drywall screw making a leak in my pipe, but what you do 6" up from that is your own business LOL

 

[JReimer]

not my photo, but it made me chuckle (and groan)

not my photo but it looks like the battle continues. Makes me laugh... and cry.

 

[PeterT]

Maybe its one of those staged gags vs a real installation, but funny nonetheless. I've watched too many of those catch a crooked contractor reality shows, nothing surprises me

 

[Susquatch]

This plumbing job is an eternal hell hole. Never saw anything like it!

First there was the repair that I posted about. Got that done with a special tool and thought I was done this project.

A while later the same pipe started leaking a few feet further back through a cold air return duct. That was a duct I could handle. When I removed the duct cover I found that a plain old butt joint had cracked all the way around. Easy fix. But still very odd.

Then I heard some more dripping.... Another Fg leak over by the wall in a 3" pipe! I'll have to move some storage racks to get at it and don't know yet what I will find. Regardless, it will be difficult access. It's a very slow drip and I have other priorities right now so I stuck a tub under it. It will have to wait a week or so.

After I got the tub in place with a tray to funnel the water, I decided to check the rest of that drain. Sure enough, another leak in the corner behind some cabinets that are screwed to the wall. This time in a 4" pipe. Another temporary tub!

That's 4 leaks in the same system at the same time! What the heck is going on?

I had postulated crappy pipe quality at the time the plumbing was all originally installed because I did have two previous leaks elsewhere in the house in a separate system under the bathroom at the West end. I also suspected hot cold cycles in the house itself - We keep it cold in winter and hot in summer to save energy. But now I'm wondering if there is something else going on.......

@DPittman wondered that too.

 

[Janger]

There is that scandal about the failing household plastic water supply pipes. Is there a similar scandal for drain pipes?

 

[Susquatch]

There is that scandal about the failing household plastic water supply pipes. Is there a similar scandal for drain pipes?

That actually makes a lot of sense John. All the pipes are failing at joints in the ABS pipe itself of one type or another, not at the glued part. The weirdest failure of all was the connector. It had a perfectly circular failure at the very center of the connector. There are no stress risers there and the cross-sectional area of the connector is bigger than the pipe itself. It is totally counter intuitive.

 

[curmudgeon]

some more conjecture...
- UV damage to the fittings prior to installation? Old stock stored in sunlight for many seasons before installation?
- too much ABS cement during assembly? If an excessive amount of ABS cement was used during assembly, and the pipe was not fully inserted into the fittings, might there have been large pools of ABS cement which would have weakened the ABS fittings.

G'luck with your repairs.

 

[PeterT]

About 10 years ago my buddy had a plastic pipe failure in his home that happened when he was at work. Disaster. Affected electrical, soaked drywall drooping off the ceiling, buggered up MDF based cabinets & vanities & furniture & flooring.... I think it was 40K & counting. The insurance company said cut a pipe coupon showing stamped ID (example Dow XYZ123) because it was known & part of some mega claim or class action. Month slater of unintended reno work he still had to cough up deductible + indirect funds in on his own. The house was a nice bungalow, nice district, built mid-80's. I said what about the rest of the homes in district all built the same time? Answer: time bombs waiting for a new family to buy & suffer similar consequences. Likely a line item you wont see on the real estate feature sheet. Might be flagged with a pre home inspection but not sure. Good luck!

 

[DPittman]

About 10 years ago my buddy had a plastic pipe failure in his home that happened when he was at work. Disaster. Affected electrical, soaked drywall drooping off the ceiling, buggered up MDF based cabinets & vanities & furniture & flooring.... I think it was 40K & counting. The insurance company said cut a pipe coupon showing stamped ID (example Dow XYZ123) because it was known & part of some mega claim or class action. Month slater of unintended reno work he still had to cough up deductible + indirect funds in on his own. The house was a nice bungalow, nice district, built mid-80's. I said what about the rest of the homes in district all built the same time? Answer: time bombs waiting for a new family to buy & suffer similar consequences. Likely a line item you wont see on the real estate feature sheet. Might be flagged with a pre home inspection but not sure. Good luck!

Scary stuff.

 

[RobinHood]

In the 80s and 90s, Poly B was used extensively in domestic water supplies. Our house was plumbed with that stuff. We bought the place in 2005 and shortly after moving in started ripping all of it out. There was a note about it in the home inspection report - plus I had “inside info” from my neighbour (a General Contractor) to look out for it and get rid of it asap.

I replaced all the pipes with PEX tubing (the white stuff with the built-in aluminum layer as O2 barrier).

Google: “poly b failure rate”


Here is another type of plastic piping that has some problems…

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/heating-pipes-recall-class-action-1.4960741

This might be what has happened in your case @Susquatch:

Defective ABS pipe

This is a letter my husband wrote explaining a disastrous situation we are experiencing with our renovated old house. I also posted it in the plumbing forum. ____________________________________________________________ Black ABS plastic pipe is standard material in homes for the drainage for...

www.houzz.com

This has been mentioned above:

 

[Susquatch]

This has been mentioned above:

That's what makes this so weird. Mine are not failing at the stress point or the glue line. They are failing in the couplers.

I marked your photo up to show a typical location. We are away for the weekend with tubs in place so I can't take photos of my actual parts.

 

[Hacker]

If they are failing in that area that is a stress point for any flexing if the pipe is not properly supported.